VGK

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VGK

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Thu May 17, 2018 10:08 am

I know this may be non Pens post related but I think it's worth posting on our main forum.

I just want to recognize the fact that Fleury has had a great post season to date and it couldn't have happened to better person.

I will also say to all Pens fans that say we should've kept Fluery not Murray...different type of team and can't make that comparison...but could you imagine being the Panthers??? You gave away John Marchesult for nothing....ouch! That kid can down right play!
Last edited by Pensfan4life8771 on Thu May 17, 2018 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VGK

Postby Badger Bob on Thu May 17, 2018 10:15 am

Who is Fluery?
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Re: VGK

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Thu May 17, 2018 10:17 am

Badger Bob wrote:Who is Fluery?


Sorry not a gifted speller LOL
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Re: VGK

Postby no name on Thu May 17, 2018 10:30 am

The Murray, Fleury debate... how long will this rage on. The logistics of this trade go a bit beyond who is the better goalie. Age, experience and Salary cap are just a few issues to consider. We had 2 Stanley cup winning goalies that in itself is admazing.

From the years 10-15 we had no cups. Fleury started most of those post seasons as the unquestioned No.1 goalie. Even in those years Johnson and Vokoun took that spot for a short while. Funny how we all forget that. Wasn't until 16 that Murray stole the show and took us to the promise land. Then in 17 they shared the spot light and got another cup.

The way this played out has been a great lesson for Fleury and for him to regain his form. I wish him the best, I wish we could of kept him but look at it as a asset not people. Much younger and a lower salary cap helps keep this team together. Those kinds of things you can't ignore. If you can forgive Fleury for the 6 year drought between cups without questioning him then maybe you can forgive Murray for this one season.

Thank you MAF for your years of service and your dedication to the Penguin organization and for being unselfish in sharing the crease with Murray and being a great tutor and roll model for him. He did a great job. Now the expansion draft has dealt you cards that forced your exit from the Pens organization wish you the best. He had to go somewhere where he was the No.1 guy. I hope he gets another cup.
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Re: VGK

Postby no name on Thu May 17, 2018 10:49 am

Unrelated to the Murry Fleury question but a interesting question was raised about the VGK. seeing an expansion team get so far in its first season, does it take away and credibility to the league itself??? Does the NHL look like a worse league for an expansion team doing so well.

I talked about this with friends and for the most part we don't see it that way. But when the team passed up on good players to get draft picks and didn't try for the cup makes you wonder how it worked out so well. The expansion rules where made to give them some good pieces, but not a Stanley cup contender. he paid 500m or something so he paid for those players. Other GMs never went through a draft like that. Instead of trading assets for something they just exposed good players.

My theory, McFee made a speed team in the western conference where physicality ruled. They remind me of the 16 Pens team that no one could match up against since no other team went after just speed.
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Re: VGK

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Thu May 17, 2018 11:00 am

no name wrote:Unrelated to the Murry Fleury question but a interesting question was raised about the VGK. seeing an expansion team get so far in its first season, does it take away and credibility to the league itself??? Does the NHL look like a worse league for an expansion team doing so well.

I talked about this with friends and for the most part we don't see it that way. But when the team passed up on good players to get draft picks and didn't try for the cup makes you wonder how it worked out so well. The expansion rules where made to give them some good pieces, but not a Stanley cup contender. he paid 500m or something so he paid for those players. Other GMs never went through a draft like that. Instead of trading assets for something they just exposed good players.

My theory, McFee made a speed team in the western conference where physicality ruled. They remind me of the 16 Pens team that no one could match up against since no other team went after just speed.



I think if you have 50 expansion teams with a choose player type draft I think you have one team that wins the cup of the 50 attempts. I think for Vegas it is the perfect timing of specific players filling a specific role and it all coming together and working. Ask any GM in the league and they will tell you it is incredibly hard to do what McPhee has put together in Vegas. I do agree with your group of friends though in that McPhee saw how speed can win a championship with Pens in 2016 and used that model in the west a slower/physical conference. Lets not forget Vegas has not won the cup yet so they could lose and just be a team that had a magical run. The part that blows my mind is they have $6M in cap space with a cap that is going up. Team will be legit and I think is the wildcard in my opinion to land Tavares.

Why wouldn't you want to be a superstar in a super star city??
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Re: VGK

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Thu May 17, 2018 11:03 am

Also on top of all what I said previously...a roster of 23 guys whose previous team said they didn't want them....that would motivate me and piss me off too.
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Re: VGK

Postby FLPensFan on Thu May 17, 2018 11:09 am

no name wrote:Unrelated to the Murry Fleury question but a interesting question was raised about the VGK. seeing an expansion team get so far in its first season, does it take away and credibility to the league itself??? Does the NHL look like a worse league for an expansion team doing so well.

I talked about this with friends and for the most part we don't see it that way. But when the team passed up on good players to get draft picks and didn't try for the cup makes you wonder how it worked out so well. The expansion rules where made to give them some good pieces, but not a Stanley cup contender. he paid 500m or something so he paid for those players. Other GMs never went through a draft like that. Instead of trading assets for something they just exposed good players.

My theory, McFee made a speed team in the western conference where physicality ruled. They remind me of the 16 Pens team that no one could match up against since no other team went after just speed.

I don't think it takes credibility away from the league.

There are several things that I don't think anyone could have predicted ahead of time, that really helped Vegas:

1. Fleury isn't just playing well for Vegas, he is having a CAREER season. His GAA and SV%, both in the regular season and the playoffs are the best numbers he has ever posted.
2. The emergence of William Karlsson. Nobody saw it coming that a guy like Karlsson was going to go from a previous high of 9 goals, and high of 25 points, to a 40 goal scorer with 78 points on the season. Most, including myself, saw him as a bottom 6 player, and maybe not even a guy in the top 12 every night based on his previous body of work.
3. The gifts of Florida. Marchessault scored 30 goals last year, and Vegas caught Florida at the perfect time.....when Tallon and Tom Rowe were having a back and forth power struggle. Rowe won this battle, and decided they didn't want to pay Marchessault a big contract. They not only exposed him, but they felt the same way about Reilly Smith....not wanting to pay him, and, he was not a Boughner type player. Smith had a 50 point season with Boston, and one with Florida....and put up 60 points this year for Vegas. Gallant was a big fan of his game in Florida. Florida gave up 2 guys that scored 138 points this season for a 4th round draft pick. :thumbdown: :face:

Other than that, a lot of other things just gelled for them, their defense played well, they fought through having to use 5 different goalies due to injuries, the Shipachyov debacle, etc. If anything, maybe they need to tweak the expansion draft rules a bit for Seattle, but on the flip side, I think a lot of luck (image that) happened and things just happened to fall in Vegas's favor a bit.
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Re: VGK

Postby Big Easy Pens Fan on Thu May 17, 2018 11:20 am

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Also on top of all what I said previously...a roster of 23 guys whose previous team said they didn't want them....that would motivate me and piss me off too.


I don't believe that all 30 teams fit into the catagory of "didn't want" to part with the player they eventually HAD TO give up in the expansion draft. Every team had to put a player on the draft list. No choice. But did they really WANT TO part with the player that they eventually surrendered? Uh...NO. But in their infinite wisdom the Golden Knights interjected that idea into their players...and it worked.

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Re: VGK

Postby KG on Thu May 17, 2018 11:31 am

I’m personally not on the Vegas bandwagon. I get they’re a good story and have us against the world mentality. I get it.

I’m gonna say I think they took a lot of teams by surprise this year and they being an expansion team don’t have any hated rivals, which is important come playoff time. They are the feelgood team. No offense to MAF I just could do without them going to the cup.

Their assistant captain is Luca Sbisa who was once traded for Chris Pronger. Engelland is a top 4 defenseman for them. I just don’t see why they are so good. Could see them being an Ottawa next season.
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Re: VGK

Postby Cow_Master66 on Thu May 17, 2018 12:09 pm

I'm all in on the VGK bandwagon and want them to win...Wouldn't mind Winnipeg either, but how can anyone root against Vegas?

I love Fleury, but not a single GM in the league would have exposed Murray, who BTW is the only rookie to ever win 2 cups. I think people look too much at this scenario as a "did we make the right decision for 2017-2018" thing...This decision was made for 2017-2027. Did Fleury outplay Murray in the playoffs? Sure, but what about next year, or 3 years, or 9 years down the line?

Also, there's zero evidence to suggest that if we had Fleury this season, we would be currently up 2 games in the ECF as some keep implying.
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Re: VGK

Postby Great58 on Thu May 17, 2018 12:20 pm

Capitals fans will lose their minds if the VGK win the Cup this year. That right there is incentive for me to root for them.
I've picked against them in each round thus far, thinking it would eventually catch up to them. But they keep proving me wrong.

They drafted well, they got lucky with Fleury (both the situation that lead to his availability and his career revival), and benefited from missteps from some GMs who overvalued the need to protect specific players. I have no problem with how the draft was structured. But Seattle likely won't get the same results as other GMs will learn from their mistakes.
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Re: VGK

Postby Daniel on Thu May 17, 2018 1:29 pm

no name wrote:Unrelated to the Murry Fleury question but a interesting question was raised about the VGK. seeing an expansion team get so far in its first season, does it take away and credibility to the league itself??? Does the NHL look like a worse league for an expansion team doing so well.


My question has always been simple, regarding the Vegas Knights. Would they have roughly the same team if they used the San Jose, Anaheim, Ottawa, Nashville, etc. format?

If not, then I think the NHL did a disservice to it's league and it's fans and created an unfair competitive advantage for the expansion team (blank salary cap with options for players not given other expansion teams).

If they had roughly the same choice as the other team, then one would have to consider that there are more than enough players and coaches to fill a 31 team league.
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Re: VGK

Postby no name on Thu May 17, 2018 2:34 pm

Daniel wrote:
no name wrote:Unrelated to the Murry Fleury question but a interesting question was raised about the VGK. seeing an expansion team get so far in its first season, does it take away and credibility to the league itself??? Does the NHL look like a worse league for an expansion team doing so well.


My question has always been simple, regarding the Vegas Knights. Would they have roughly the same team if they used the San Jose, Anaheim, Ottawa, Nashville, etc. format?

If not, then I think the NHL did a disservice to it's league and it's fans and created an unfair competitive advantage for the expansion team (blank salary cap with options for players not given other expansion teams).

If they had roughly the same choice as the other team, then one would have to consider that there are more than enough players and coaches to fill a 31 team league.



Apples to oranges. VGK paid 500m for their team, since they were paying that much for a franchise they worked into that price more availability to better player. Also the salary cap played a huge roll for and against them in that process. Yes they had to ahear to all the same cap rules, but other teams looked at this as a chance to get rid of high salary players. Like the Penguins with Fleury. Nashville and other franchises paid under 200m for theirs of course that was 20 years or so ago. It was they same for those teams. Vegas had access to 2nd and 3rd line players and those other franchises had access to 3rd and 4th line players.

I also think a lot of GMs didn't look to protect assets like they should of. Hey if you are leaving James Neal exposed, you would think Phoenix or another bad team would of offered a 1st rounder for him to get a 30 goal scorer and leave some other scrubb unprotected on their roster.

We could of traded Fleury and got more assets which I am betting a lot of teams who went with option goalie b in a trade and are kicking themselves for it now. Actually worked out well for us with the Brassard deal.
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Re: VGK

Postby Daniel on Thu May 17, 2018 2:53 pm

no name wrote:
Daniel wrote:
no name wrote:Unrelated to the Murry Fleury question but a interesting question was raised about the VGK. seeing an expansion team get so far in its first season, does it take away and credibility to the league itself??? Does the NHL look like a worse league for an expansion team doing so well.


My question has always been simple, regarding the Vegas Knights. Would they have roughly the same team if they used the San Jose, Anaheim, Ottawa, Nashville, etc. format?

If not, then I think the NHL did a disservice to it's league and it's fans and created an unfair competitive advantage for the expansion team (blank salary cap with options for players not given other expansion teams).

If they had roughly the same choice as the other team, then one would have to consider that there are more than enough players and coaches to fill a 31 team league.



Apples to oranges. VGK paid 500m for their team, since they were paying that much for a franchise they worked into that price more availability to better player. Also the salary cap played a huge roll for and against them in that process. Yes they had to ahear to all the same cap rules, but other teams looked at this as a chance to get rid of high salary players. Like the Penguins with Fleury. Nashville and other franchises paid under 200m for theirs of course that was 20 years or so ago. It was they same for those teams. Vegas had access to 2nd and 3rd line players and those other franchises had access to 3rd and 4th line players.

I also think a lot of GMs didn't look to protect assets like they should of. Hey if you are leaving James Neal exposed, you would think Phoenix or another bad team would of offered a 1st rounder for him to get a 30 goal scorer and leave some other scrubb unprotected on their roster.

We could of traded Fleury and got more assets which I am betting a lot of teams who went with option goalie b in a trade and are kicking themselves for it now. Actually worked out well for us with the Brassard deal.


I don't think the 500 mil entitles them to a competitive advantage at all. What were the NHL revenues back then compared to now? What other expansion team in any sports had the access to the quality of players Vegas did?

While other teams were able to get rid of high price players, they didn't really have the option to keep them in a lot of cases. We can look at Neal, sure Nashville could have exposed him using the previous expansion rules, but they didn't have much of a choice. They were going to lose a quality player that other expansion teams wouldn't have had access to. If they wanted to trade him, that's there right. No way James Neal gets exposed 20 years ago, they'd have exposes a Mike Fisher (if he didn't retire) or a random AHL player.

You're point that Vegas had access to 2nd/3rd line players compared to 3rd/4th line players is exactly my point. If a team chooses to expose a 2nd line player rather than a 33rd, that's there choice. If they choice is pick a 2nd line player, I think it creates an unfair competitive advantage.

If the rules for this expansion draft were the same, and Vegas still has this quality of a team, then it's the choices of the other teams.
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Re: VGK

Postby Hatrick on Thu May 17, 2018 10:07 pm

Coming into the playoffs I was rooting for a knights-pens finals. I honestly picked both to get to the conference finals since the pacific is weak and I thought the pens were strong enough to get that far as well. Unfortunately we didn't hold up our end of that bargain so just rooting for vegas to go all the way now.

as for why vegas is so good, there is three main reasons they are so much more successful than previous expansion teams
1. different rules- this is the one everyone harps on, slightly more favorable rules means having a few more choices.
2. Vegas outplayed abunch of novice poker players(had to get a gambling reference in here somewhere), meaning other GMs made a ton of bad decisions that allowed vegas to basically hold them hostage to get more, for example even GMJR threw in a draft pick for absolutely no reason. There was no need to do it other than to be nice. It wasn't that high of a pick so not a huge blunder compared to what some other teams ended up giving up.
3. salary cap- until a few weeks ago I didn't realize this was the first expansion where the league had a salary cap, this gave vegas even more leverage as they had all that cap space to fill while some other teams were crunched for space. They were able to take a bad contracts off a teams hands for additional assets going to them in some examples, while other teams couldn't protect some good yet higher paid players because of cap space so they had to leave players exposed they might not otherwise.

Also remember since they are an expansion team they could not get any teams star players but because of the above three reasons they did get lots of 2nd and 3rd line guys, this means they can roll the lines without worrying about a drastic dropoff when their 4th line is on the ice.
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Re: VGK

Postby LordStanley919209 on Thu May 17, 2018 11:10 pm

I don't think it's a bad thing for the league that Vegas has had this kind of success so early.

It's much better than an Atlanta situation where you put in such a bumbling management group that the team never has a chance to gain traction in a nontraditional market.
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Re: VGK

Postby pekkasteele on Fri May 18, 2018 4:10 am

Also, with vegas having a clean sheet to start with, and a better pool of players to pick from, helped. They could pick players that exactly fit the team identity of speed, they did not have any "bad contracts" on players that doesn't fit. No players that they can't get rid of so they have to play even tho it is hurting the team.
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Re: VGK

Postby brwi on Fri May 18, 2018 5:40 am

no name wrote:The Murray, Fleury debate... how long will this rage on. The logistics of this trade go a bit beyond who is the better goalie. Age, experience and Salary cap are just a few issues to consider. We had 2 Stanley cup winning goalies that in itself is admazing.

From the years 10-15 we had no cups. Fleury started most of those post seasons as the unquestioned No.1 goalie. Even in those years Johnson and Vokoun took that spot for a short while. Funny how we all forget that. Wasn't until 16 that Murray stole the show and took us to the promise land. Then in 17 they shared the spot light and got another cup.

The way this played out has been a great lesson for Fleury and for him to regain his form. I wish him the best, I wish we could of kept him but look at it as a asset not people. Much younger and a lower salary cap helps keep this team together. Those kinds of things you can't ignore. If you can forgive Fleury for the 6 year drought between cups without questioning him then maybe you can forgive Murray for this one season.

Thank you MAF for your years of service and your dedication to the Penguin organization and for being unselfish in sharing the crease with Murray and being a great tutor and roll model for him. He did a great job. Now the expansion draft has dealt you cards that forced your exit from the Pens organization wish you the best. He had to go somewhere where he was the No.1 guy. I hope he gets another cup.


:thumb: That pretty much sums it all up there.
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Re: VGK

Postby no name on Fri May 18, 2018 8:41 am

If the rules for this expansion draft were the same, and Vegas still has this quality of a team, then it's the choices of the other teams.


Rules for Nashville

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_NHL_Expansion_Draft#Rules

First- and second-year pros were exempt from being selected in the draft. Each of the 26 franchises in the league were allowed to protect either one goaltender, five defensemen and nine forwards or two goaltenders, three defensemen and seven forwards.



Rules for Vegas

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-expansion-draft-rules/c-281010592

* Clubs will have two options for players they wish to protect in the Expansion Draft:

a) Seven forwards, three defensemen and one goaltender

b) Eight skaters (forwards/defensemen) and one goaltender


Totally different rules for both of them. Vegas paid a lot more money to get a better pool of players.
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Re: VGK

Postby Sigwolf on Fri May 18, 2018 2:07 pm

no name wrote:
If the rules for this expansion draft were the same, and Vegas still has this quality of a team, then it's the choices of the other teams.


Rules for Nashville

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_NHL_Expansion_Draft#Rules

First- and second-year pros were exempt from being selected in the draft. Each of the 26 franchises in the league were allowed to protect either one goaltender, five defensemen and nine forwards or two goaltenders, three defensemen and seven forwards.



Rules for Vegas

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-expansion-draft-rules/c-281010592


* Clubs will have two options for players they wish to protect in the Expansion Draft:

a) Seven forwards, three defensemen and one goaltender

b) Eight skaters (forwards/defensemen) and one goaltender


Totally different rules for both of them. Vegas paid a lot more money to get a better pool of players.


Therein lies the problem... you shouldn't be able to pay "a lot more money to get a better pool of players". If you want an expansion team, you get an expansion team. That's why all the talk of Vegas' success as "an expansion team" is a load of crap. It's not a level playing field, and there has never been an expansion team that had the choices that Vegas did. If a rich person wants to pay off an established team's owner to get a contender, that's their option, but the *league* should not be rewriting expansion rules depending on the check offered.
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Re: VGK

Postby Jim on Fri May 18, 2018 2:27 pm

Having a team start out considerably below the average is stupid. What the league did with this eexpansion is fine. A few of the players simply EXPLODED and overachieved which is also fine. (you have a 6 goal and 9 goal season guy get 45 this year... that is not because the expansion rules were too biased.
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Re: VGK

Postby LimerickPensFan on Fri May 18, 2018 2:34 pm

I've read that the Seattle expansion will have the same rules - with the exception that Vegas is exempt.
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Re: VGK

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri May 18, 2018 2:54 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:I've read that the Seattle expansion will have the same rules - with the exception that Vegas is exempt.


Wonder what the fee will be?
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Re: VGK

Postby ville5 on Fri May 18, 2018 3:40 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:I've read that the Seattle expansion will have the same rules - with the exception that Vegas is exempt.


Wonder what the fee will be?

IIRC, the fee will be quite a bit higher than LVK's. Over $600 mil?
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