2018 Summer Game Plan

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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:18 pm

Malkintent wrote:Brassard and Hagelin are probably done after this season and both are going to play in thr bottom six. When two of your "old" guys are Crosby and Malkin it's not them same as having a bunch of Orpiks lying around.

You are correct. I don't see Crosby getting moved ever, and I think the chances of Malkin ever being moved are very slim, less than 10%. But Hagelin and Brassard are likely leaving as free agents.....meaning, they likely won't be leaving in a manner to bring young assets to the team in return, either. And you aren't going to find 24 and under players on the market. You have to trade for them.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Pruezy11881 on Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:21 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:I honestly think Crosby and Malkin both finish their careers in Pittsburgh.

As far as age debate, when it comes to Sid or Geno its not a factor. The way these guys condition every offseason is insane. Will their body not be as fresh as say McDavid? Well yes a 20 vs 30 is different but I don't think you'll see this all of sudden drop in production/skill.

Also I'm not sure how many people listened to MM yesterday but I caught piece of his interview with Dejean and he said he got the impression that Rutherford is pushing hard to land a top 5 draft pick this year? What could we even offer up in trade to do so? Who would we target? Besides the really good D-man going to Buffalo at #1 I'm not really familiar with other guys in draft.

So, I did not hear this but, let's discuss a bit more in-depth.

The top 5 teams drafting, in order, are Buffalo, Carolina, Montreal, Ottawa, and Arizona.
---Buffalo is not trading the pick. They are taking Dahlin, who is head and shoulders above everyone else in this draft class.
---Carolina is 85-90% sure it is not trading the pick. They are pretty certain they are taking Andrei Svechnikov, LW
---Montreal has the 3rd overall pick. They have FOUR 2nd round picks, so I could see the 3rd overall pick in play.
---Ottawa has the 4th overall pick. I really don't see us being a trade match with Ottawa, unless we were to do something really stupid like Kessel for Bobby Ryan, and even then, I don't think OTT includes #4 overall.
---Arizona has the 5th overall pick. There are multiple scenarios where this may work.

So, I think Buffalo is out, and I think Ottawa is out, in terms of acquiring either one of those picks. Carolina is highly unlikely, but for now let's say picks 2, 3, and 5 are available to trade. What would the cost be?
---Carolina, I'm thinking you'd like have to give up Sprong and Kessel for Skinner and #2 overall. Does that sound appealing to ANYONE?
---Montreal is looking for scoring and centers. I think Brassard is too old to interest them in dealing away the #3 pick, and the next best thing we likely have, Jordy Bellerive, is too much of a complete unknown to be able to acquire the #3 overall pick. Sprong alone isn't enough to pull down the #3 overall pick. Again, best I can probably offer is Sprong AND Kessel for Pacioretty and #3 overall. Not sure why Montreal would make that deal, taking on a more expensive, older Kessel, unless Pacioretty is demanding a trade.
---Finally, we come to Arizona. The long rumored Domi acquisition? Phil Kessel for Max Domi and #5 overall pick. That would likely have to be the deal, unless they were willing to take Sprong and Jarry for Domi and #5 overall.....but I don't think that would fly.

So, Skinner and #2 for Kessel and Sprong, or Domi and #5 for Kessel. Those are the only possible options I see (and even then, Carolina/Arizona may not like those deals). What is available if one of these deals were accepted?
--Andrei Svechnikov is described as probably the only player besides Rasmus Dahlin who could step into the NHL right now. 6'3" LH, LW, been described as a 5-tool player (stealing baseball prospect term) with no glaring weaknesses. Good skater, good shot, good defensively, power forward type. I see Svechnikov only available #2 overall, as he is a widely regarded as the best forward in the draft.
--Filip Zadina. Likely to go #3 overall to Montreal, RW, 6 foot tall. Another guy who is very well rounded, considered to have the best wrist shot in the draft. He is more of a sniper, but he battles for pucks, and plays a 200 foot game.
--Jesperi Kotkaniemi is a center, listed at 6'2". Hard to move off the puck, not the greatest skater (more awkward than speed). Also will need work defensively, but considered to be the 1 center in the draft that could be a 1st line center in his career.
--Brady Tkachuk is a 6'3" LW. He's not fast but a good skater. He doesn't have elite skill, but he will score goals. Me personally, I think he's a bit overhyped because of his last name.
--Quinton Hughes is a 5'10" LD, considered the 2nd best dman behind Dahlin. Considered the best skater of ANY player in the draft, but his size is a concern because he tends to lose board battles.
--Oliver Wahlstrom is 6'1" RH RW, and considered to have the best overall shot in the draft. his skating and defensive work is considered to be OK, not much above average if at all.
--Adam Boqvist is 5'11" RH RD. On the smaller side, he tends to lose puck battles against bigger players. Said to have a very high hockey IQ and a good skater, fairly good defensively for his age.
--Evan Bouchard is a 6'2" RH RD. Good offensive defenseman. Skating is his weakness

As you know, I have been preaching about getting the team younger. Well, I can honestly say I don't see a deal to move into the top 5 that I think would make any sense whatsoever. If you are picking at #5 by getting Domi and #5 for Kessel, the guy you pick at #5 is a crapshoot to even make the team, chances are better that he cannot jump to the NHL in his first year. If you are trading with Carolina, and pickup Zadina or Svechnikov, is it worth giving up Kessel and Sprong. I still don't think this is enough for Carolina to get in return for #2 You'd better be sure whoever you take it going to step in immediately, or else you've just set the team backwards.

As someone that preaches getting younger, I will emphatically say making a trade into the top 5 IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. It won't help the team soon enough, and the assets given up will likely hurt the overall team makeup more than help.

Domi and Chychrun then you have me sold... :wink:
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Hopes and dreams have been dashed.....Nikolai Kulemin will play for Magnitogorsk of the KHL next year. :cry:
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:27 pm

Pruezy11881 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:I honestly think Crosby and Malkin both finish their careers in Pittsburgh.

As far as age debate, when it comes to Sid or Geno its not a factor. The way these guys condition every offseason is insane. Will their body not be as fresh as say McDavid? Well yes a 20 vs 30 is different but I don't think you'll see this all of sudden drop in production/skill.

Also I'm not sure how many people listened to MM yesterday but I caught piece of his interview with Dejean and he said he got the impression that Rutherford is pushing hard to land a top 5 draft pick this year? What could we even offer up in trade to do so? Who would we target? Besides the really good D-man going to Buffalo at #1 I'm not really familiar with other guys in draft.

So, I did not hear this but, let's discuss a bit more in-depth.

The top 5 teams drafting, in order, are Buffalo, Carolina, Montreal, Ottawa, and Arizona.
---Buffalo is not trading the pick. They are taking Dahlin, who is head and shoulders above everyone else in this draft class.
---Carolina is 85-90% sure it is not trading the pick. They are pretty certain they are taking Andrei Svechnikov, LW
---Montreal has the 3rd overall pick. They have FOUR 2nd round picks, so I could see the 3rd overall pick in play.
---Ottawa has the 4th overall pick. I really don't see us being a trade match with Ottawa, unless we were to do something really stupid like Kessel for Bobby Ryan, and even then, I don't think OTT includes #4 overall.
---Arizona has the 5th overall pick. There are multiple scenarios where this may work.

So, I think Buffalo is out, and I think Ottawa is out, in terms of acquiring either one of those picks. Carolina is highly unlikely, but for now let's say picks 2, 3, and 5 are available to trade. What would the cost be?
---Carolina, I'm thinking you'd like have to give up Sprong and Kessel for Skinner and #2 overall. Does that sound appealing to ANYONE?
---Montreal is looking for scoring and centers. I think Brassard is too old to interest them in dealing away the #3 pick, and the next best thing we likely have, Jordy Bellerive, is too much of a complete unknown to be able to acquire the #3 overall pick. Sprong alone isn't enough to pull down the #3 overall pick. Again, best I can probably offer is Sprong AND Kessel for Pacioretty and #3 overall. Not sure why Montreal would make that deal, taking on a more expensive, older Kessel, unless Pacioretty is demanding a trade.
---Finally, we come to Arizona. The long rumored Domi acquisition? Phil Kessel for Max Domi and #5 overall pick. That would likely have to be the deal, unless they were willing to take Sprong and Jarry for Domi and #5 overall.....but I don't think that would fly.

So, Skinner and #2 for Kessel and Sprong, or Domi and #5 for Kessel. Those are the only possible options I see (and even then, Carolina/Arizona may not like those deals). What is available if one of these deals were accepted?
--Andrei Svechnikov is described as probably the only player besides Rasmus Dahlin who could step into the NHL right now. 6'3" LH, LW, been described as a 5-tool player (stealing baseball prospect term) with no glaring weaknesses. Good skater, good shot, good defensively, power forward type. I see Svechnikov only available #2 overall, as he is a widely regarded as the best forward in the draft.
--Filip Zadina. Likely to go #3 overall to Montreal, RW, 6 foot tall. Another guy who is very well rounded, considered to have the best wrist shot in the draft. He is more of a sniper, but he battles for pucks, and plays a 200 foot game.
--Jesperi Kotkaniemi is a center, listed at 6'2". Hard to move off the puck, not the greatest skater (more awkward than speed). Also will need work defensively, but considered to be the 1 center in the draft that could be a 1st line center in his career.
--Brady Tkachuk is a 6'3" LW. He's not fast but a good skater. He doesn't have elite skill, but he will score goals. Me personally, I think he's a bit overhyped because of his last name.
--Quinton Hughes is a 5'10" LD, considered the 2nd best dman behind Dahlin. Considered the best skater of ANY player in the draft, but his size is a concern because he tends to lose board battles.
--Oliver Wahlstrom is 6'1" RH RW, and considered to have the best overall shot in the draft. his skating and defensive work is considered to be OK, not much above average if at all.
--Adam Boqvist is 5'11" RH RD. On the smaller side, he tends to lose puck battles against bigger players. Said to have a very high hockey IQ and a good skater, fairly good defensively for his age.
--Evan Bouchard is a 6'2" RH RD. Good offensive defenseman. Skating is his weakness

As you know, I have been preaching about getting the team younger. Well, I can honestly say I don't see a deal to move into the top 5 that I think would make any sense whatsoever. If you are picking at #5 by getting Domi and #5 for Kessel, the guy you pick at #5 is a crapshoot to even make the team, chances are better that he cannot jump to the NHL in his first year. If you are trading with Carolina, and pickup Zadina or Svechnikov, is it worth giving up Kessel and Sprong. I still don't think this is enough for Carolina to get in return for #2 You'd better be sure whoever you take it going to step in immediately, or else you've just set the team backwards.

As someone that preaches getting younger, I will emphatically say making a trade into the top 5 IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. It won't help the team soon enough, and the assets given up will likely hurt the overall team makeup more than help.

Domi and Chychrun then you have me sold... :wink:


I'd like any deal much better if Letang was included. Not sure Phoenix would take that much salary.

Ditch Sheary and Hunwick then you have 20M to reshape the team.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:30 pm

Honestly, I'd like to see a way that the following happens:

--Acquire Domi, sign as RFA for 3 years, no more than 3.5M AAV
--Sign Grabner as a UFA for 3 years, no more than 3.5M AAV
--Sign a guy like John Moore or Thomas Hickey for 2-3M AAV on a 2 year deal
--Use one of Sheary or Hagelin, whichever Arizona prefers, along with a pick/prospect, like a future 2nd, Jarry, Militec, Angelo, etc to get Domi
--Flip the other of Sheary or Hagelin to Team X, to recoup the pick/prospect used in Domi deal
--Trade Hunwick or bury him in the minors.

Essentially, you are swapping out Hagelin for Grabner, Sheary for Domi, and Hunwick for Moore/Hickey
---Grabner's speed and defense are on par with Hagelin, but Grabner has much better hands. He can play both wings. He has scored 27 goals each of the past 3 seasons. I'd rather pay Grabner 4M than Hagelin. With Hagelin a UFA at season's end, move Hagelin this summer, bring Grabner in for 3 years for the same or a little less money, and that is an upgrade.
---Domi isn't a big guy, but he plays a tough game. He has grit, just not in the way everyone may think. He can play LW and center. His fancy stats are ugly, especially compared to Sheary, but his battle level would be an upgrade, and I do believe his numbers and fancy stats would improve being on a better team, versus a bottom feeder like Arizona.
---Moore or Hickey are both solid 3rd pairing guys that can skate. They aren't overly flashy and aren't going to be big point producers, but they are solid.

None of these are huge moves, but I think they are minor upgrades in areas that need upgraded. Work with this until the trade deadline, and see where any additional tweaks may be needed.

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Domi-Malkin-Kessel
Grabner-Brassard-Sprong
ZAR-Sheahan-Rust
xKuhnhackl, Simon

Dumo-Letang
Maatta-Schultz
Moore/Hickey-Oleksiak
xRuhwedel

Murray
Jarry/DeSmith
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Hatrick on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:00 pm

Jim wrote:
interstorm wrote:2) if we should trade some of our aging players (kessel) to get younger even if the team isn't as star studded


Isn't this waht the Pirates claim to do? Hows that working out for them?

If you keep trading players when they hit 30/31 because they are getting old... you are never going to win. Actually, you might win after a few years of losing and losing and getting high draft picks then having a good year or two wit those guys until you have to trade them because they are not in their 20's anymore.

Poor management model.

actually the model makes more sense in baseball with a mediocre team than a top tier team in the NHL. A team that is not gonna have a shot at winning now should trade to improve future chances, but in the case of the penguins there best shot at winning is the next two years so it would be dumb to diminish those chances even if you are making the team less bad in 8 years down the line.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby dark_forces on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:00 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Honestly, I'd like to see a way that the following happens:

--Acquire Domi, sign as RFA for 3 years, no more than 3.5M AAV
--Sign Grabner as a UFA for 3 years, no more than 3.5M AAV
--Sign a guy like John Moore or Thomas Hickey for 2-3M AAV on a 2 year deal
--Use one of Sheary or Hagelin, whichever Arizona prefers, along with a pick/prospect, like a future 2nd, Jarry, Militec, Angelo, etc to get Domi
--Flip the other of Sheary or Hagelin to Team X, to recoup the pick/prospect used in Domi deal
--Trade Hunwick or bury him in the minors.

Essentially, you are swapping out Hagelin for Grabner, Sheary for Domi, and Hunwick for Moore/Hickey
---Grabner's speed and defense are on par with Hagelin, but Grabner has much better hands. He can play both wings. He has scored 27 goals each of the past 3 seasons. I'd rather pay Grabner 4M than Hagelin. With Hagelin a UFA at season's end, move Hagelin this summer, bring Grabner in for 3 years for the same or a little less money, and that is an upgrade.
---Domi isn't a big guy, but he plays a tough game. He has grit, just not in the way everyone may think. He can play LW and center. His fancy stats are ugly, especially compared to Sheary, but his battle level would be an upgrade, and I do believe his numbers and fancy stats would improve being on a better team, versus a bottom feeder like Arizona.
---Moore or Hickey are both solid 3rd pairing guys that can skate. They aren't overly flashy and aren't going to be big point producers, but they are solid.

None of these are huge moves, but I think they are minor upgrades in areas that need upgraded. Work with this until the trade deadline, and see where any additional tweaks may be needed.

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Domi-Malkin-Kessel
Grabner-Brassard-Sprong
ZAR-Sheahan-Rust
xKuhnhackl, Simon

Dumo-Letang
Maatta-Schultz
Moore/Hickey-Oleksiak
xRuhwedel

Murray
Jarry/DeSmith

I would be happy with this lineup to start the season. Though, I don't see both Domi and Grabner. I think Grabner is going to want a top 6 role wherever he winds up. The more I research Domi, the more I think he would fit in and the fans would love him. He would put up 60 points on our squad. I would be game to move ZAR and Sprong to 3rd line wings with Brassard and sign Kunitz to a one year deal as a 4th line wing with Rust on the other side.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Hatrick on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:16 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Honestly, I'd like to see a way that the following happens:

--Acquire Domi, sign as RFA for 3 years, no more than 3.5M AAV
--Sign Grabner as a UFA for 3 years, no more than 3.5M AAV
--Sign a guy like John Moore or Thomas Hickey for 2-3M AAV on a 2 year deal
--Use one of Sheary or Hagelin, whichever Arizona prefers, along with a pick/prospect, like a future 2nd, Jarry, Militec, Angelo, etc to get Domi
--Flip the other of Sheary or Hagelin to Team X, to recoup the pick/prospect used in Domi deal
--Trade Hunwick or bury him in the minors.

Essentially, you are swapping out Hagelin for Grabner, Sheary for Domi, and Hunwick for Moore/Hickey
---Grabner's speed and defense are on par with Hagelin, but Grabner has much better hands. He can play both wings. He has scored 27 goals each of the past 3 seasons. I'd rather pay Grabner 4M than Hagelin. With Hagelin a UFA at season's end, move Hagelin this summer, bring Grabner in for 3 years for the same or a little less money, and that is an upgrade.
---Domi isn't a big guy, but he plays a tough game. He has grit, just not in the way everyone may think. He can play LW and center. His fancy stats are ugly, especially compared to Sheary, but his battle level would be an upgrade, and I do believe his numbers and fancy stats would improve being on a better team, versus a bottom feeder like Arizona.
---Moore or Hickey are both solid 3rd pairing guys that can skate. They aren't overly flashy and aren't going to be big point producers, but they are solid.

None of these are huge moves, but I think they are minor upgrades in areas that need upgraded. Work with this until the trade deadline, and see where any additional tweaks may be needed.

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Domi-Malkin-Kessel
Grabner-Brassard-Sprong
ZAR-Sheahan-Rust
xKuhnhackl, Simon

Dumo-Letang
Maatta-Schultz
Moore/Hickey-Oleksiak
xRuhwedel

Murray
Jarry/DeSmith

one of the more reasonable projections on here, I would assume the team would be roughly the same salary wise with those moves. Also most of the wings are interchangeable.
If you cant get grabner for a good enough price and Arizona is fine with sheary than everything would be the same except hagelin instead of grabner to start season. Not as ideal since contract year but still doable. Also would be fine with signing kunitz to a cheap deal instead of say a kuhnackl.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:25 pm

Hatrick wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Honestly, I'd like to see a way that the following happens:

--Acquire Domi, sign as RFA for 3 years, no more than 3.5M AAV
--Sign Grabner as a UFA for 3 years, no more than 3.5M AAV
--Sign a guy like John Moore or Thomas Hickey for 2-3M AAV on a 2 year deal
--Use one of Sheary or Hagelin, whichever Arizona prefers, along with a pick/prospect, like a future 2nd, Jarry, Militec, Angelo, etc to get Domi
--Flip the other of Sheary or Hagelin to Team X, to recoup the pick/prospect used in Domi deal
--Trade Hunwick or bury him in the minors.

Essentially, you are swapping out Hagelin for Grabner, Sheary for Domi, and Hunwick for Moore/Hickey
---Grabner's speed and defense are on par with Hagelin, but Grabner has much better hands. He can play both wings. He has scored 27 goals each of the past 3 seasons. I'd rather pay Grabner 4M than Hagelin. With Hagelin a UFA at season's end, move Hagelin this summer, bring Grabner in for 3 years for the same or a little less money, and that is an upgrade.
---Domi isn't a big guy, but he plays a tough game. He has grit, just not in the way everyone may think. He can play LW and center. His fancy stats are ugly, especially compared to Sheary, but his battle level would be an upgrade, and I do believe his numbers and fancy stats would improve being on a better team, versus a bottom feeder like Arizona.
---Moore or Hickey are both solid 3rd pairing guys that can skate. They aren't overly flashy and aren't going to be big point producers, but they are solid.

None of these are huge moves, but I think they are minor upgrades in areas that need upgraded. Work with this until the trade deadline, and see where any additional tweaks may be needed.

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Domi-Malkin-Kessel
Grabner-Brassard-Sprong
ZAR-Sheahan-Rust
xKuhnhackl, Simon

Dumo-Letang
Maatta-Schultz
Moore/Hickey-Oleksiak
xRuhwedel

Murray
Jarry/DeSmith

one of the more reasonable projections on here, I would assume the team would be roughly the same salary wise with those moves. Also most of the wings are interchangeable.
If you cant get grabner for a good enough price and Arizona is fine with sheary than everything would be the same except hagelin instead of grabner to start season. Not as ideal since contract year but still doable. Also would be fine with signing kunitz to a cheap deal instead of say a kuhnackl.


If I'm GMJR I see if Phoenix has interest in a Sheary and Letang for Domi and Hjalmarsson swap.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:35 pm

Hatrick wrote:
Jim wrote:
interstorm wrote:2) if we should trade some of our aging players (kessel) to get younger even if the team isn't as star studded


Isn't this waht the Pirates claim to do? Hows that working out for them?

If you keep trading players when they hit 30/31 because they are getting old... you are never going to win. Actually, you might win after a few years of losing and losing and getting high draft picks then having a good year or two wit those guys until you have to trade them because they are not in their 20's anymore.

Poor management model.

actually the model makes more sense in baseball with a mediocre team than a top tier team in the NHL. A team that is not gonna have a shot at winning now should trade to improve future chances, but in the case of the penguins there best shot at winning is the next two years so it would be dumb to diminish those chances even if you are making the team less bad in 8 years down the line.


I think there is a way to get younger and not change the Stanley Cup odds. By doing that it keeps the Pens Stanley Cup contenders for a decade rather than 4-5 years. I think the goal should be to lose Geno/Sid in 8-10 years and be competitive all those years. I think with the current makeup, this team will crash and burn in 4-5 years. Doesn't mean you trade Kessel/Letang/etc now, but they also shouldn't be on the team in 4-5 years either.

I think Crosby and Malkin can transition into kind of a Steve Yzerman role with hopefully guys like Guentzel/ZAR/Sprong/new young talent taking up the scoring slack.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Steve on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:26 pm

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Also I'm not sure how many people listened to MM yesterday but I caught piece of his interview with Dejean and he said he got the impression that Rutherford is pushing hard to land a top 5 draft pick this year? What could we even offer up in trade to do so? Who would we target? Besides the really good D-man going to Buffalo at #1 I'm not really familiar with other guys in draft.


Interesting. If true (of course, a big If), I wonder if the Pens are targeting a specific player, or perhaps they would like to use that pick to acquire someone? (Karlsson?). Either way, sounds like alot of moving parts. Looking forward to seeing how the offseason plays out.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:26 pm

I was listening to Madden today on the way home. He had Josh Yohe on the show. He again brought up the rumor he has heard that GMJR is trying to move up into the top part of the draft, possibly top 5. Yohe said he has heard nothing of the sort.

They talked about two other areas that got me thinking about some roster makeup:

1. They were talking about the defense, and even though GMJR has said some things recently, he still believes the Penguins would like to move Hunwick if possible. They also talked about Oleksiak, and how much the Penguins management loves him. They feel he has the possibility of continuing to improve and becoming a 2nd pairing guy. So then I thought, could the Penguins look to move Schultz in a year, and slide Oleksiak up. Maybe. Thinking bigger, could the Penguins look to move Letang in a year, slide Schultz up to top pairing, and Oleksiak to 2nd pairing RD. Will require Penguins picking up some better, preferably good but cheaper, 3rd pairing guys.

2. I didn't hear the full conversation, but they were talking about forwards, improving the 4th line, etc. Yohe brought up Rust, and seemed to be indicating that he very well could be a surprise guy that gets moved this summer. If Sprong is 100% making the team (which Yohe believes is the case), and Kessel isn't going anywhere, he does not think the Penguins want Rust playing a 4th line role. He could move to LW, but he's not nearly as effective there.

Rutherford has talked of trying to extend him. I'd rather have a less effective Rust on the LW than Sheary, IMO. I would think Chakya in Arizona or Dubas in Toronto would love Sheary, because for as bad as he can look tripping up and down the ice or going weeks on end without scoring, his analytics look really good, and Chakya and Dubas are big analytics guys.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Pitts on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:56 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
Pruezy11881 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:I honestly think Crosby and Malkin both finish their careers in Pittsburgh.

As far as age debate, when it comes to Sid or Geno its not a factor. The way these guys condition every offseason is insane. Will their body not be as fresh as say McDavid? Well yes a 20 vs 30 is different but I don't think you'll see this all of sudden drop in production/skill.

Also I'm not sure how many people listened to MM yesterday but I caught piece of his interview with Dejean and he said he got the impression that Rutherford is pushing hard to land a top 5 draft pick this year? What could we even offer up in trade to do so? Who would we target? Besides the really good D-man going to Buffalo at #1 I'm not really familiar with other guys in draft.

So, I did not hear this but, let's discuss a bit more in-depth.

The top 5 teams drafting, in order, are Buffalo, Carolina, Montreal, Ottawa, and Arizona.
---Buffalo is not trading the pick. They are taking Dahlin, who is head and shoulders above everyone else in this draft class.
---Carolina is 85-90% sure it is not trading the pick. They are pretty certain they are taking Andrei Svechnikov, LW
---Montreal has the 3rd overall pick. They have FOUR 2nd round picks, so I could see the 3rd overall pick in play.
---Ottawa has the 4th overall pick. I really don't see us being a trade match with Ottawa, unless we were to do something really stupid like Kessel for Bobby Ryan, and even then, I don't think OTT includes #4 overall.
---Arizona has the 5th overall pick. There are multiple scenarios where this may work.

So, I think Buffalo is out, and I think Ottawa is out, in terms of acquiring either one of those picks. Carolina is highly unlikely, but for now let's say picks 2, 3, and 5 are available to trade. What would the cost be?
---Carolina, I'm thinking you'd like have to give up Sprong and Kessel for Skinner and #2 overall. Does that sound appealing to ANYONE?
---Montreal is looking for scoring and centers. I think Brassard is too old to interest them in dealing away the #3 pick, and the next best thing we likely have, Jordy Bellerive, is too much of a complete unknown to be able to acquire the #3 overall pick. Sprong alone isn't enough to pull down the #3 overall pick. Again, best I can probably offer is Sprong AND Kessel for Pacioretty and #3 overall. Not sure why Montreal would make that deal, taking on a more expensive, older Kessel, unless Pacioretty is demanding a trade.
---Finally, we come to Arizona. The long rumored Domi acquisition? Phil Kessel for Max Domi and #5 overall pick. That would likely have to be the deal, unless they were willing to take Sprong and Jarry for Domi and #5 overall.....but I don't think that would fly.

So, Skinner and #2 for Kessel and Sprong, or Domi and #5 for Kessel. Those are the only possible options I see (and even then, Carolina/Arizona may not like those deals). What is available if one of these deals were accepted?
--Andrei Svechnikov is described as probably the only player besides Rasmus Dahlin who could step into the NHL right now. 6'3" LH, LW, been described as a 5-tool player (stealing baseball prospect term) with no glaring weaknesses. Good skater, good shot, good defensively, power forward type. I see Svechnikov only available #2 overall, as he is a widely regarded as the best forward in the draft.
--Filip Zadina. Likely to go #3 overall to Montreal, RW, 6 foot tall. Another guy who is very well rounded, considered to have the best wrist shot in the draft. He is more of a sniper, but he battles for pucks, and plays a 200 foot game.
--Jesperi Kotkaniemi is a center, listed at 6'2". Hard to move off the puck, not the greatest skater (more awkward than speed). Also will need work defensively, but considered to be the 1 center in the draft that could be a 1st line center in his career.
--Brady Tkachuk is a 6'3" LW. He's not fast but a good skater. He doesn't have elite skill, but he will score goals. Me personally, I think he's a bit overhyped because of his last name.
--Quinton Hughes is a 5'10" LD, considered the 2nd best dman behind Dahlin. Considered the best skater of ANY player in the draft, but his size is a concern because he tends to lose board battles.
--Oliver Wahlstrom is 6'1" RH RW, and considered to have the best overall shot in the draft. his skating and defensive work is considered to be OK, not much above average if at all.
--Adam Boqvist is 5'11" RH RD. On the smaller side, he tends to lose puck battles against bigger players. Said to have a very high hockey IQ and a good skater, fairly good defensively for his age.
--Evan Bouchard is a 6'2" RH RD. Good offensive defenseman. Skating is his weakness

As you know, I have been preaching about getting the team younger. Well, I can honestly say I don't see a deal to move into the top 5 that I think would make any sense whatsoever. If you are picking at #5 by getting Domi and #5 for Kessel, the guy you pick at #5 is a crapshoot to even make the team, chances are better that he cannot jump to the NHL in his first year. If you are trading with Carolina, and pickup Zadina or Svechnikov, is it worth giving up Kessel and Sprong. I still don't think this is enough for Carolina to get in return for #2 You'd better be sure whoever you take it going to step in immediately, or else you've just set the team backwards.

As someone that preaches getting younger, I will emphatically say making a trade into the top 5 IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. It won't help the team soon enough, and the assets given up will likely hurt the overall team makeup more than help.

Domi and Chychrun then you have me sold... :wink:


I'd like any deal much better if Letang was included. Not sure Phoenix would take that much salary.

Ditch Sheary and Hunwick then you have 20M to reshape the team.

Letang/++ to Montreal for the #3/Pacioretty. Include whatever prospects/picks from each side to make it work...
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:19 pm

Pitts wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Pruezy11881 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:I honestly think Crosby and Malkin both finish their careers in Pittsburgh.

As far as age debate, when it comes to Sid or Geno its not a factor. The way these guys condition every offseason is insane. Will their body not be as fresh as say McDavid? Well yes a 20 vs 30 is different but I don't think you'll see this all of sudden drop in production/skill.

Also I'm not sure how many people listened to MM yesterday but I caught piece of his interview with Dejean and he said he got the impression that Rutherford is pushing hard to land a top 5 draft pick this year? What could we even offer up in trade to do so? Who would we target? Besides the really good D-man going to Buffalo at #1 I'm not really familiar with other guys in draft.

So, I did not hear this but, let's discuss a bit more in-depth.

The top 5 teams drafting, in order, are Buffalo, Carolina, Montreal, Ottawa, and Arizona.
---Buffalo is not trading the pick. They are taking Dahlin, who is head and shoulders above everyone else in this draft class.
---Carolina is 85-90% sure it is not trading the pick. They are pretty certain they are taking Andrei Svechnikov, LW
---Montreal has the 3rd overall pick. They have FOUR 2nd round picks, so I could see the 3rd overall pick in play.
---Ottawa has the 4th overall pick. I really don't see us being a trade match with Ottawa, unless we were to do something really stupid like Kessel for Bobby Ryan, and even then, I don't think OTT includes #4 overall.
---Arizona has the 5th overall pick. There are multiple scenarios where this may work.

So, I think Buffalo is out, and I think Ottawa is out, in terms of acquiring either one of those picks. Carolina is highly unlikely, but for now let's say picks 2, 3, and 5 are available to trade. What would the cost be?
---Carolina, I'm thinking you'd like have to give up Sprong and Kessel for Skinner and #2 overall. Does that sound appealing to ANYONE?
---Montreal is looking for scoring and centers. I think Brassard is too old to interest them in dealing away the #3 pick, and the next best thing we likely have, Jordy Bellerive, is too much of a complete unknown to be able to acquire the #3 overall pick. Sprong alone isn't enough to pull down the #3 overall pick. Again, best I can probably offer is Sprong AND Kessel for Pacioretty and #3 overall. Not sure why Montreal would make that deal, taking on a more expensive, older Kessel, unless Pacioretty is demanding a trade.
---Finally, we come to Arizona. The long rumored Domi acquisition? Phil Kessel for Max Domi and #5 overall pick. That would likely have to be the deal, unless they were willing to take Sprong and Jarry for Domi and #5 overall.....but I don't think that would fly.

So, Skinner and #2 for Kessel and Sprong, or Domi and #5 for Kessel. Those are the only possible options I see (and even then, Carolina/Arizona may not like those deals). What is available if one of these deals were accepted?
--Andrei Svechnikov is described as probably the only player besides Rasmus Dahlin who could step into the NHL right now. 6'3" LH, LW, been described as a 5-tool player (stealing baseball prospect term) with no glaring weaknesses. Good skater, good shot, good defensively, power forward type. I see Svechnikov only available #2 overall, as he is a widely regarded as the best forward in the draft.
--Filip Zadina. Likely to go #3 overall to Montreal, RW, 6 foot tall. Another guy who is very well rounded, considered to have the best wrist shot in the draft. He is more of a sniper, but he battles for pucks, and plays a 200 foot game.
--Jesperi Kotkaniemi is a center, listed at 6'2". Hard to move off the puck, not the greatest skater (more awkward than speed). Also will need work defensively, but considered to be the 1 center in the draft that could be a 1st line center in his career.
--Brady Tkachuk is a 6'3" LW. He's not fast but a good skater. He doesn't have elite skill, but he will score goals. Me personally, I think he's a bit overhyped because of his last name.
--Quinton Hughes is a 5'10" LD, considered the 2nd best dman behind Dahlin. Considered the best skater of ANY player in the draft, but his size is a concern because he tends to lose board battles.
--Oliver Wahlstrom is 6'1" RH RW, and considered to have the best overall shot in the draft. his skating and defensive work is considered to be OK, not much above average if at all.
--Adam Boqvist is 5'11" RH RD. On the smaller side, he tends to lose puck battles against bigger players. Said to have a very high hockey IQ and a good skater, fairly good defensively for his age.
--Evan Bouchard is a 6'2" RH RD. Good offensive defenseman. Skating is his weakness

As you know, I have been preaching about getting the team younger. Well, I can honestly say I don't see a deal to move into the top 5 that I think would make any sense whatsoever. If you are picking at #5 by getting Domi and #5 for Kessel, the guy you pick at #5 is a crapshoot to even make the team, chances are better that he cannot jump to the NHL in his first year. If you are trading with Carolina, and pickup Zadina or Svechnikov, is it worth giving up Kessel and Sprong. I still don't think this is enough for Carolina to get in return for #2 You'd better be sure whoever you take it going to step in immediately, or else you've just set the team backwards.

As someone that preaches getting younger, I will emphatically say making a trade into the top 5 IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. It won't help the team soon enough, and the assets given up will likely hurt the overall team makeup more than help.

Domi and Chychrun then you have me sold... :wink:


I'd like any deal much better if Letang was included. Not sure Phoenix would take that much salary.

Ditch Sheary and Hunwick then you have 20M to reshape the team.

Letang/++ to Montreal for the #3/Pacioretty. Include whatever prospects/picks from each side to make it work...

I don't see how it works for Montreal as long as Shea Weber and his albatross contract are there. 8 more years (including this coming season) at 7.8M dollars, plus Letang at 7.25M and Petry at 5.5M....too much money for 3 guys on defense.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Cow_Master66 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:43 am

I personally don’t mind Haglin’s contract. He changes the entire dynamic of the team when he is in, and he’s also historically a big game player and top PK guy. His points don’t equal his $$ but his value goes well beyond that. It’s entirely possible we don’t win the previous 2 cups without him....
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:55 am

DKs Friday Insider piece matches up a bit with what Yohe said on Madden today. According to DK, he has heard there will be a renewed emphasis on players playing in their proper position. Sullivan didn't seem to care last year. This year, either Rutherford or elsewhere is putting a focus on this. The player probably most effected is Rust, with Hornqvist, Kessel, and Sprong almost certainly ahead of him on the depth chart. This will likely fuel the Rust trade speculation over the next week or two.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:15 am

FLPensFan wrote:DKs Friday Insider piece matches up a bit with what Yohe said on Madden today. According to DK, he has heard there will be a renewed emphasis on players playing in their proper position. Sullivan didn't seem to care last year. This year, either Rutherford or elsewhere is putting a focus on this. The player probably most effected is Rust, with Hornqvist, Kessel, and Sprong almost certainly ahead of him on the depth chart. This will likely fuel the Rust trade speculation over the next week or two.


Why? On a good team Rust is a bottom six RW. Soon enough Sprong will be on line 2 and Rust line 3. Having him on the 4th with Sheahan is fine for now.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:16 am

Cow_Master66 wrote:I personally don’t mind Haglin’s contract. He changes the entire dynamic of the team when he is in, and he’s also historically a big game player and top PK guy. His points don’t equal his $$ but his value goes well beyond that. It’s entirely possible we don’t win the previous 2 cups without him....


If he signs an extension it won't be near 4M which is fine by me.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby ville5 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:39 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:DKs Friday Insider piece matches up a bit with what Yohe said on Madden today. According to DK, he has heard there will be a renewed emphasis on players playing in their proper position. Sullivan didn't seem to care last year. This year, either Rutherford or elsewhere is putting a focus on this. The player probably most effected is Rust, with Hornqvist, Kessel, and Sprong almost certainly ahead of him on the depth chart. This will likely fuel the Rust trade speculation over the next week or two.


Why? On a good team Rust is a bottom six RW. Soon enough Sprong will be on line 2 and Rust line 3. Having him on the 4th with Sheahan is fine for now.

I like Rust on the 3rd line. I just wish he could play a full season and Sully would keep him in 1 spot and line. He's only .07 ppg behind Sheary career-wise and it doesn't seem he's had as much pt with Sid. And he's a better defensive forward, forechecker and more effective in the corners and along the boards than Sheary, imho.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby ville5 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:39 am

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:According to the Onion of Penguins coverage (AKA TIOPS), interest in Kessel is starting to pickup, whereas 2-3 teams were showing interest in the last week or two, there are now 5 or 6 teams that have had preliminary discussions with Pittsburgh. TIOPS says "league sources say" it is 50/50 as to whether Kessel gets moved.

He says with JVR, Skinner, Pacioretty, and Kovalchuk, there are a lot of options right now. Skinner is reportedly a 1st and young NHL prospect. Florida, LA, and Buffalo interested in Skinner per TIOPS, but all 3 of those teams are looking at Kessel as a potential backup. TIOPS says the advantage of Kessel over Skinner and Pacioretty is term left on the deal, and there is a belief Pittsburgh may retain a small portion in the right deal.

The other talk is that bringing Kessel into a veteran locker room is a better for his "attitude," and this is why LA continues to be in the Kessel rumor mill. Also according to TIOPS, LA, Chicago, and Nashville are 3 of the teams on Kessel's 8 team approved list.

=========================================
Also, as a small note, TIOPS states "buzz around the league" is teams would be surprised if Maxi Domi isn't a Penguin come draft day.

According to TIOPS, Penguins actually had conversations with Arizona regarding Domi at the trade deadline, but felt the discussions would be better to explore this summer. TIOPS say these discussions have intensified and that multiple trade scenarios between the two have been put in play. It is unclear if/how Kessel might be involved in those discussions.


I'm curious at asking price for Domi?

I hear it is high. I doubt it is high prospect and a 1st. Maybe Sheary and 2nd/Jarry would be enough, but not sure if Arizona would want that. I could see them maybe being interested in Hagelin. They've always had one of those speedy guys on their teams.......Boedker, Rieder types.

Sheary and Jarry is too much. I don't see GMJR dumping Jarry for a negligible uptick in production. Maybe Lauzon and Sheary?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:41 am

ville5 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:DKs Friday Insider piece matches up a bit with what Yohe said on Madden today. According to DK, he has heard there will be a renewed emphasis on players playing in their proper position. Sullivan didn't seem to care last year. This year, either Rutherford or elsewhere is putting a focus on this. The player probably most effected is Rust, with Hornqvist, Kessel, and Sprong almost certainly ahead of him on the depth chart. This will likely fuel the Rust trade speculation over the next week or two.


Why? On a good team Rust is a bottom six RW. Soon enough Sprong will be on line 2 and Rust line 3. Having him on the 4th with Sheahan is fine for now.

I like Rust on the 3rd line. I just wish he could play a full season and Sully would keep him in 1 spot and line. He's only .07 ppg behind Sheary career-wise and it doesn't seem he's had as much pt with Sid. And he's a better defensive forward, forechecker and more effective in the corners and along the boards than Sheary, imho.


I agree with this , so what do you pay Rust if he's a better all around player than Sheary?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:50 am

ville5 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:According to the Onion of Penguins coverage (AKA TIOPS), interest in Kessel is starting to pickup, whereas 2-3 teams were showing interest in the last week or two, there are now 5 or 6 teams that have had preliminary discussions with Pittsburgh. TIOPS says "league sources say" it is 50/50 as to whether Kessel gets moved.

He says with JVR, Skinner, Pacioretty, and Kovalchuk, there are a lot of options right now. Skinner is reportedly a 1st and young NHL prospect. Florida, LA, and Buffalo interested in Skinner per TIOPS, but all 3 of those teams are looking at Kessel as a potential backup. TIOPS says the advantage of Kessel over Skinner and Pacioretty is term left on the deal, and there is a belief Pittsburgh may retain a small portion in the right deal.

The other talk is that bringing Kessel into a veteran locker room is a better for his "attitude," and this is why LA continues to be in the Kessel rumor mill. Also according to TIOPS, LA, Chicago, and Nashville are 3 of the teams on Kessel's 8 team approved list.

=========================================
Also, as a small note, TIOPS states "buzz around the league" is teams would be surprised if Maxi Domi isn't a Penguin come draft day.

According to TIOPS, Penguins actually had conversations with Arizona regarding Domi at the trade deadline, but felt the discussions would be better to explore this summer. TIOPS say these discussions have intensified and that multiple trade scenarios between the two have been put in play. It is unclear if/how Kessel might be involved in those discussions.


I'm curious at asking price for Domi?

I hear it is high. I doubt it is high prospect and a 1st. Maybe Sheary and 2nd/Jarry would be enough, but not sure if Arizona would want that. I could see them maybe being interested in Hagelin. They've always had one of those speedy guys on their teams.......Boedker, Rieder types.

Sheary and Jarry is too much. I don't see GMJR dumping Jarry for a negligible uptick in production. Maybe Lauzon and Sheary?


No interest in trying to get Hjalmarsson or Demers if they'd take Letang?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby ville5 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:51 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
ville5 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:DKs Friday Insider piece matches up a bit with what Yohe said on Madden today. According to DK, he has heard there will be a renewed emphasis on players playing in their proper position. Sullivan didn't seem to care last year. This year, either Rutherford or elsewhere is putting a focus on this. The player probably most effected is Rust, with Hornqvist, Kessel, and Sprong almost certainly ahead of him on the depth chart. This will likely fuel the Rust trade speculation over the next week or two.


Why? On a good team Rust is a bottom six RW. Soon enough Sprong will be on line 2 and Rust line 3. Having him on the 4th with Sheahan is fine for now.

I like Rust on the 3rd line. I just wish he could play a full season and Sully would keep him in 1 spot and line. He's only .07 ppg behind Sheary career-wise and it doesn't seem he's had as much pt with Sid. And he's a better defensive forward, forechecker and more effective in the corners and along the boards than Sheary, imho.


I agree with this , so what do you pay Rust if he's a better all around player than Sheary?

Excellent question. Hopefully the games played will hold it down somewhat.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:26 am

ville5 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
ville5 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:DKs Friday Insider piece matches up a bit with what Yohe said on Madden today. According to DK, he has heard there will be a renewed emphasis on players playing in their proper position. Sullivan didn't seem to care last year. This year, either Rutherford or elsewhere is putting a focus on this. The player probably most effected is Rust, with Hornqvist, Kessel, and Sprong almost certainly ahead of him on the depth chart. This will likely fuel the Rust trade speculation over the next week or two.


Why? On a good team Rust is a bottom six RW. Soon enough Sprong will be on line 2 and Rust line 3. Having him on the 4th with Sheahan is fine for now.

I like Rust on the 3rd line. I just wish he could play a full season and Sully would keep him in 1 spot and line. He's only .07 ppg behind Sheary career-wise and it doesn't seem he's had as much pt with Sid. And he's a better defensive forward, forechecker and more effective in the corners and along the boards than Sheary, imho.


I agree with this , so what do you pay Rust if he's a better all around player than Sheary?

Excellent question. Hopefully the games played will hold it down somewhat.

The problem is, can you really afford to pay your 4th line 6-10M, depending who is on it? I think Hagelin-Sheahan-Rust would be an excellent 4th line, if we had the forwards above them to push them down to 4th line.....but that would be almost 9-10M on a 4th line. Technically, I guess it wouldn't matter if you are considering ZAR-Brassard-Sprong your starting 3rd line, because it is only a 5M line....so cost wise, it is just reversed.

I'd rather pay Rust 3M a year than Sheary 10 times out of 10. Rust may score a little less, but he's miles better defensively. He's a more rounded player....one they should keep. But, I also do agree that the Penguins have some guys out of place, or a few guys that are redundant. It's easy for us to say just move Rust to the 4th line.....but, you pay him 3M a year....his numbers are surely going to go down getting only 4th line minutes. He plays a lot on the PK, but that really isn't an opportunity to produce points. So then you ask, why are we paying this guy who was a 35-40 point player, 3M to be a 20-25 point player.

That makes me wonder if a Domi for Rust and a pick type deal is in the works. But acquiring Domi.....you still need to dump a LW somewhere to make room for him.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:03 pm

https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/731773

Ok so I admit defeat officially. Pens aren't going to do anything crazy except bolster the D and 4th line.

I was talking to buddy of mine last night (avid Bruins fan) and he said Nick Holden can very well hold down a 3rd line D spot and even 2nd pairing to eat minutes. I heard this and thought aka reduce Letang's minutes.

I tried to make the trade with Arizona somewhat reasonable and what they may look for.

Thoughts welcomed.
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