2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Luckybreak on Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:09 pm

I recall people commenting during the first run how much better Murray was than Vasilevsky. If Murray is seeking similar money it's an easy decision - he's not the same caliber. Paying a goalie that much is a mistake IMO as the speed of the game, less clutch and grab, as well as stick development seems to have led to more frequent injuries, especially concussions through contact or shots.

Whilst Murray supplanted MAF and won two Cups he didn't carry the team, it was more like he played well enough for the team that was firing on all cylinders to win. One of the Cups was equally thanks to MAF. I love Murray's calm attitude but we saw this falter (understandably) following the loss of his father.

The glove debate will continue, whilst stats show his glove is not as horrible as some suggest, IMO it is a weakness. His glove looks uncomfortable, he struggles to catch cleanly and has a strange out to in movement that's great for hugging body shots but seems to expose the top shelf.

From a coaches perspective, Murray has the all important experience. But hang on a minute, wasn't he a rookie in the first Cup? The real point here is that he's still Sullivan's preferred choice. With Jarry coming down to earth I think Murray will start the playoffs unless he's injured, or Jarry rediscovers early season form.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby stonewizard51 on Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:32 pm

Luckybreak wrote:I recall people commenting during the first run how much better Murray was than Vasilevsky. If Murray is seeking similar money it's an easy decision - he's not the same caliber. Paying a goalie that much is a mistake IMO as the speed of the game, less clutch and grab, as well as stick development seems to have led to more frequent injuries, especially concussions through contact or shots.

Whilst Murray supplanted MAF and won two Cups he didn't carry the team, it was more like he played well enough for the team that was firing on all cylinders to win. One of the Cups was equally thanks to MAF. I love Murray's calm attitude but we saw this falter (understandably) following the loss of his father.

The glove debate will continue, whilst stats show his glove is not as horrible as some suggest, IMO it is a weakness. His glove looks uncomfortable, he struggles to catch cleanly and has a strange out to in movement that's great for hugging body shots but seems to expose the top shelf.

From a coaches perspective, Murray has the all important experience. But hang on a minute, wasn't he a rookie in the first Cup? The real point here is that he's still Sullivan's preferred choice. With Jarry coming down to earth I think Murray will start the playoffs unless he's injured, or Jarry rediscovers early season form.


Like MAF, Murray has his moments where he ***** the bed. FTR I have been as hard on Murray as anyone. I cringe when the game goes to a shootout but he has had his moments of making some head scratcher saves. However, during the Cup runs he usually stood on his head the game after a horrible one. I guess Sully could be thinking you stay with the one that brought you to the dance. I'm glad I'm not the coach having to make those decisions.

FWIW Murray was technically a rookie during the 2nd Cup too.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Luckybreak on Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:37 pm

stonewizard51 wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:I recall people commenting during the first run how much better Murray was than Vasilevsky. If Murray is seeking similar money it's an easy decision - he's not the same caliber. Paying a goalie that much is a mistake IMO as the speed of the game, less clutch and grab, as well as stick development seems to have led to more frequent injuries, especially concussions through contact or shots.

Whilst Murray supplanted MAF and won two Cups he didn't carry the team, it was more like he played well enough for the team that was firing on all cylinders to win. One of the Cups was equally thanks to MAF. I love Murray's calm attitude but we saw this falter (understandably) following the loss of his father.

The glove debate will continue, whilst stats show his glove is not as horrible as some suggest, IMO it is a weakness. His glove looks uncomfortable, he struggles to catch cleanly and has a strange out to in movement that's great for hugging body shots but seems to expose the top shelf.

From a coaches perspective, Murray has the all important experience. But hang on a minute, wasn't he a rookie in the first Cup? The real point here is that he's still Sullivan's preferred choice. With Jarry coming down to earth I think Murray will start the playoffs unless he's injured, or Jarry rediscovers early season form.


Like MAF, Murray has his moments where he ***** the bed. FTR I have been as hard on Murray as anyone. I cringe when the game goes to a shootout but he has had his moments of making some head scratcher saves. However, during the Cup runs he usually stood on his head the game after a horrible one. I guess Sully could be thinking you stay with the one that brought you to the dance. I'm glad I'm not the coach having to make those decisions.

FWIW Murray was technically a rookie during the 2nd Cup too.


Yep, he was a rookie for Cup 2 as well! In his defence Murray always rebounded well and never seems to get rattled. Technically he has great rebound control, sucks pucks in extremely well and is usually less prone to the overly aggressive positioning MAF could be guilty of. Has made some great desperation blocker saves and the scorpion but overall less likely on the highlight reel (usually suggestions a more conservative style so doesn't take himself out of the play).

Jarry is more athletic and reactionary, somewhere between MAF and Murray, with exceptional puck handling. He seems pretty level headed but would br good to see him in some high pressure games.

As you say, tough decision for coach and for GMJR in the Summer....
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby penny lane on Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:26 pm

Southern Fan wrote:Hopefully, Murray gets a second game against Buffalo and Jarry gets the Caps game. Would like to see Jarry handle the puck against the Caps forecheck so that Wilson doesn’t send Dumoulin back to the IR.


I just heard that Matt Murray will be starting tonight. Hopefully for Jarry he plays on Saturday.

I want to see the goalies shut down opponents in the 3rd.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby murphydump55 on Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:13 pm

Luckybreak wrote:I recall people commenting during the first run how much better Murray was than Vasilevsky. If Murray is seeking similar money it's an easy decision - he's not the same caliber. Paying a goalie that much is a mistake IMO as the speed of the game, less clutch and grab, as well as stick development seems to have led to more frequent injuries, especially concussions through contact or shots.

Whilst Murray supplanted MAF and won two Cups he didn't carry the team, it was more like he played well enough for the team that was firing on all cylinders to win. One of the Cups was equally thanks to MAF. I love Murray's calm attitude but we saw this falter (understandably) following the loss of his father.

The glove debate will continue, whilst stats show his glove is not as horrible as some suggest, IMO it is a weakness. His glove looks uncomfortable, he struggles to catch cleanly and has a strange out to in movement that's great for hugging body shots but seems to expose the top shelf.

From a coaches perspective, Murray has the all important experience. But hang on a minute, wasn't he a rookie in the first Cup? The real point here is that he's still Sullivan's preferred choice. With Jarry coming down to earth I think Murray will start the playoffs unless he's injured, or Jarry rediscovers early season form.


You’re right about stats showing his glove isn’t as bad as people think, but many think opinion overshadows actual facts.

The numbers show that the majority of goaltenders are beat glove hand over the other spots. Murray gets beat glove side less than league average last I saw.

Re: his glove.

He holds it close to the one o’clock position with the tip of the glove facing up. Goalies that hold their gloves like that over turn their wrist to a more neutral position before catching. This takes time and the extra movement causes them to miss some pucks and not catch them in the pocket. He does it to protect against high shots but it actually vacated mid glove coverage. There are many guys that hold their gloves in the same position in the NHL but the best catchers and glove hands in the league do not. I remember a few years ago in the playoff finals he and Pekka both got scored on a lot mid glove because of their hand positioning.

This came from an NHL goaltender development coach.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Luckybreak on Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:21 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:I recall people commenting during the first run how much better Murray was than Vasilevsky. If Murray is seeking similar money it's an easy decision - he's not the same caliber. Paying a goalie that much is a mistake IMO as the speed of the game, less clutch and grab, as well as stick development seems to have led to more frequent injuries, especially concussions through contact or shots.

Whilst Murray supplanted MAF and won two Cups he didn't carry the team, it was more like he played well enough for the team that was firing on all cylinders to win. One of the Cups was equally thanks to MAF. I love Murray's calm attitude but we saw this falter (understandably) following the loss of his father.

The glove debate will continue, whilst stats show his glove is not as horrible as some suggest, IMO it is a weakness. His glove looks uncomfortable, he struggles to catch cleanly and has a strange out to in movement that's great for hugging body shots but seems to expose the top shelf.

From a coaches perspective, Murray has the all important experience. But hang on a minute, wasn't he a rookie in the first Cup? The real point here is that he's still Sullivan's preferred choice. With Jarry coming down to earth I think Murray will start the playoffs unless he's injured, or Jarry rediscovers early season form.


You’re right about stats showing his glove isn’t as bad as people think, but many think opinion overshadows actual facts.

The numbers show that the majority of goaltenders are beat glove hand over the other spots. Murray gets beat glove side less than league average last I saw.

Re: his glove.

He holds it close to the one o’clock position with the tip of the glove facing up. Goalies that hold their gloves like that over turn their wrist to a more neutral position before catching. This takes time and the extra movement causes them to miss some pucks and not catch them in the pocket. He does it to protect against high shots but it actually vacated mid glove coverage. There are many guys that hold their gloves in the same position in the NHL but the best catchers and glove hands in the league do not. I remember a few years ago in the playoff finals he and Pekka both got scored on a lot mid glove because of their hand positioning.

This came from an NHL goaltender development coach.



Im a goalie and a total goalie geek, the above is 100% correct. There was/is an awful trend for goalies to adopt a very high and open glove position in neutral/ ready stance. The idea is to deter shooters as they can see less space up top. In reality from the puck perspective this opens up more space. It also means goalies are instinctively forced to drop their glove from the high position as the shot is released. Look at guys like Freddy Anderson in contrast, glove is more of a handshake position and flows outward for the save. I think Anderson has incredible glove control in comparison, yet statistically most goalies get beat more high glove. Take the extra coverage you get with the blocker plus stick away and I guess this is natural.

Murray likely gives up more rebounds from his glove, and looks awkward on that side due to his style, making the glove side goals that much more obvious to spectators - but he does not allow more goals than league average there. Not my personal stylistic preference, but not the issue it's made out to be.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby murphydump55 on Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:27 pm

Luckybreak wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:I recall people commenting during the first run how much better Murray was than Vasilevsky. If Murray is seeking similar money it's an easy decision - he's not the same caliber. Paying a goalie that much is a mistake IMO as the speed of the game, less clutch and grab, as well as stick development seems to have led to more frequent injuries, especially concussions through contact or shots.

Whilst Murray supplanted MAF and won two Cups he didn't carry the team, it was more like he played well enough for the team that was firing on all cylinders to win. One of the Cups was equally thanks to MAF. I love Murray's calm attitude but we saw this falter (understandably) following the loss of his father.

The glove debate will continue, whilst stats show his glove is not as horrible as some suggest, IMO it is a weakness. His glove looks uncomfortable, he struggles to catch cleanly and has a strange out to in movement that's great for hugging body shots but seems to expose the top shelf.

From a coaches perspective, Murray has the all important experience. But hang on a minute, wasn't he a rookie in the first Cup? The real point here is that he's still Sullivan's preferred choice. With Jarry coming down to earth I think Murray will start the playoffs unless he's injured, or Jarry rediscovers early season form.


You’re right about stats showing his glove isn’t as bad as people think, but many think opinion overshadows actual facts.

The numbers show that the majority of goaltenders are beat glove hand over the other spots. Murray gets beat glove side less than league average last I saw.

Re: his glove.

He holds it close to the one o’clock position with the tip of the glove facing up. Goalies that hold their gloves like that over turn their wrist to a more neutral position before catching. This takes time and the extra movement causes them to miss some pucks and not catch them in the pocket. He does it to protect against high shots but it actually vacated mid glove coverage. There are many guys that hold their gloves in the same position in the NHL but the best catchers and glove hands in the league do not. I remember a few years ago in the playoff finals he and Pekka both got scored on a lot mid glove because of their hand positioning.

This came from an NHL goaltender development coach.



Im a goalie and a total goalie geek, the above is 100% correct. There was/is an awful trend for goalies to adopt a very high and open glove position in neutral/ ready stance. The idea is to deter shooters as they can see less space up top. In reality from the puck perspective this opens up more space. It also means goalies are instinctively forced to drop their glove from the high position as the shot is released. Look at guys like Freddy Anderson in contrast, glove is more of a handshake position and flows outward for the save. I think Anderson has incredible glove control in comparison, yet statistically most goalies get beat more high glove. Take the extra coverage you get with the blocker plus stick away and I guess this is natural.

Murray likely gives up more rebounds from his glove, and looks awkward on that side due to his style, making the glove side goals that much more obvious to spectators - but he does not allow more goals than league average there. Not my personal stylistic preference, but not the issue it's made out to be.


These posts aren’t going to sit well with people lol
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Southern Fan on Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:53 pm

With back to back games this weekend, I really hope they get a look at Jarry against the Caps
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby murphydump55 on Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:07 pm

Off topic and hot take. Lehner will be starter come playoffs.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Southern Fan on Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:19 pm

So what are the odds if Jarry wins tomorrow that Jarry will play Tuesday against the Devils. I’ll say 0%.

Pens better get their offense in high gear.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Luckybreak on Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:04 pm

Southern Fan wrote:So what are the odds if Jarry wins tomorrow that Jarry will play Tuesday against the Devils. I’ll say 0%.

Pens better get their offense in high gear.



Sully seems to have decided. Can't say I agree.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby FLPensFan on Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:38 pm

Luckybreak wrote:
Southern Fan wrote:So what are the odds if Jarry wins tomorrow that Jarry will play Tuesday against the Devils. I’ll say 0%.

Pens better get their offense in high gear.



Sully seems to have decided. Can't say I agree.

I'm not certain I hang many, if any, of the recent loses on poor goaltending. It's the least of their problems right now.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Luckybreak on Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:03 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:
Southern Fan wrote:So what are the odds if Jarry wins tomorrow that Jarry will play Tuesday against the Devils. I’ll say 0%.

Pens better get their offense in high gear.



Sully seems to have decided. Can't say I agree.

I'm not certain I hang many, if any, of the recent loses on poor goaltending. It's the least of their problems right now.


Im not suggesting Murray was guilty of poor goaltending - I don't think either goalie has much of a chance when hung out to dry (unguarded slot and odd man breaks galore) like Murray was vs the Caps. My criticism is of the coaching staff not utilising the best player for a scenario.

In this instance Jarry's superior stick handling could really help out the D vs the heavy forecheck. I believe Jarry would have been more confident playing the dump in that led to goal 1 for the Caps. This may have prevented their first goal and maybe the first period doesn't end up with a 3-0 hole.

Sully essentially announced Murray will start the playoffs by giving him the start yesterday. This decision was irrespective of the potential advantage Jarry could bring in that game, as well as his superior stats for the season to date.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby brwi on Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:32 am

Luckybreak wrote:Im not suggesting Murray was guilty of poor goaltending - I don't think either goalie has much of a chance when hung out to dry (unguarded slot and odd man breaks galore) like Murray was vs the Caps. My criticism is of the coaching staff not utilising the best player for a scenario.

In this instance Jarry's superior stick handling could really help out the D vs the heavy forecheck. I believe Jarry would have been more confident playing the dump in that led to goal 1 for the Caps. This may have prevented their first goal and maybe the first period doesn't end up with a 3-0 hole.

Sully essentially announced Murray will start the playoffs by giving him the start yesterday. This decision was irrespective of the potential advantage Jarry could bring in that game, as well as his superior stats for the season to date.


Completely agree. I think even assuming that Murray is going to be the #1 come playoff time you still start Jarry yesterday. Use the right tool for the job.

Considering that Jarry is likely the #1 next year and beyond, might be nice to show him a little more respect and keep the thought that he's the possible #1 THIS year too. While he's cooled off in 2020, he's not been bad at all. Neither has Murray and what's wrong with some competition or using the goaltender that makes the most sense according to factors like opponent?
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Maestro on Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:29 am

Murray this season carries a 2.89 GAA and .898 save percentage.

That ain't worth 6mil/yr
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Luckybreak on Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:32 pm

Maestro wrote:Murray this season carries a 2.89 GAA and .898 save percentage.

That ain't worth 6mil/yr


He's been trending downwards. Can't fault him for season his father passed, but performance hasn't rebounded as I'd hoped.

My preference would be trading Murray and relying on Jarry and DeSmith next season.

I think the days of a clear starter and back up are gone, they're are too many games in a season and the goalies seem to getting more concussions due to stick tech and faster bigger bodies skating freely. In this cap league I'd rather have two reliable goalies at 2 - 4 mil each than one at 6 - 8 and one scrub.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Luckybreak on Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:50 pm

Maestro wrote:Murray this season carries a 2.89 GAA and .898 save percentage.

That ain't worth 6mil/yr


He's been trending downwards. Can't fault him for season his father passed, but performance hasn't rebounded as I'd hoped.

My preference would be trading Murray and relying on Jarry and DeSmith next season.

I think the days of a clear starter and back up are gone, they're are too many games in a season and the goalies seem to getting more concussions due to stick tech and faster bigger bodies skating freely. In this cap league I'd rather have two reliable goalies at 2 - 4 mil each than one at 6 - 8 and one scrub.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Luckybreak on Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:53 pm

Sorry for double post, can't delete!
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Southern Fan on Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:46 pm

I think the goalie competition is over. Figure Jarry gets three more games on back to backs and maybe a fourth. Murray gets the other 9-10 games. Jarry is quicker and a better puck handler, but it doesn’t much matter if the guys in front of him don’t start playing team defense.

Murray may give up the one stinker goal a game, but he does pretty well the rest of the game. Last nights first goal was very weak but that save on the wraparound was excellent. The second goal was a slight deflection that a decent number of goalies in the league wouldn’t have tracked.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Luckybreak on Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:30 pm

Southern Fan wrote:I think the goalie competition is over. Figure Jarry gets three more games on back to backs and maybe a fourth. Murray gets the other 9-10 games. Jarry is quicker and a better puck handler, but it doesn’t much matter if the guys in front of him don’t start playing team defense.

Murray may give up the one stinker goal a game, but he does pretty well the rest of the game. Last nights first goal was very weak but that save on the wraparound was excellent. The second goal was a slight deflection that a decent number of goalies in the league wouldn’t have tracked.


Yeah, I'd be shocked if those estimates for starts were reversed. Be interesting to see how it shakes out, hopefully one of them regains form. Won't mean much unless the rest of the team rediscovers the system.
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Re: 2020 and Post-ASG Penguins Goalie Tracking

Postby Daniel on Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:09 pm

Southern Fan wrote:I think the goalie competition is over. Figure Jarry gets three more games on back to backs and maybe a fourth. Murray gets the other 9-10 games. Jarry is quicker and a better puck handler, but it doesn’t much matter if the guys in front of him don’t start playing team defense.

Murray may give up the one stinker goal a game, but he does pretty well the rest of the game. Last nights first goal was very weak but that save on the wraparound was excellent. The second goal was a slight deflection that a decent number of goalies in the league wouldn’t have tracked.


I think it was always going to be Murray since it’s more comfortable for Sullivan. I think the competition was for two reasons. To push Murray to be playoff ready and see if Jarry can be a long term option. I think it was successful on both accounts and the Penguins don’t have to pay Murray a huge salary this offseason.

Of course now that I say that Murray gets a huge contract and Jarry gets traded.
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