The search for the elusive 3C thread!

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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby pens_CT on Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

ville5 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
Jim wrote:
ville5 wrote:How much retention would it take to have interest in Andrew Shaw?


Depends on the deal. I'd be willing to do Shaw for Hagelin straight up, ha! $3.9M for Shaw is much better than $6M for some of the other names being discussed.

26 years old, PKer, very nice FO% (although low #), not opposed to contact, potential 40 point guy, maybe more with Kessel...


You are going to have to add from the Penguins side to make such a deal. Nobody is making a one for one trade involving Hagelin unless you are getting an equally bad contract coming back.


Exactly. Take Hanzel for example. He has been a train wreck in Dallas. You'd be looking at taking someone with as much term or maybe a year more with a 4M hit or higher.

You could potentially find your 3C solution in Hanzel or he could be a complete flop and you have him for an additional year. So for me, to move Hagelin for another bad contract isnt very appealing.

I'm not sure you'd have to take a bad contract back. If you truly wanted to dump Hags, I'm sure Arizona would take a year and a half of his salary for a 3rd.


Last time I looked Arizona isn’t really drawing much in the way of fans and they certainly aren’t headed for the playoffs anytime soon. I’m not sure they are jumping up and down to take on Hagelin’s salary.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:27 pm

ville5 wrote:I'm not sure you'd have to take a bad contract back. If you truly wanted to dump Hags, I'm sure Arizona would take a year and a half of his salary for a 3rd.


If that was the case I think the Pens would have done it by now. I really hope when the Pens do make a trade for a 3C and get Rust back that young guys like Sprong and Simon arent moved to the bench to keep Hagelin in the lineup.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:34 pm

ville5 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
Jim wrote:
ville5 wrote:How much retention would it take to have interest in Andrew Shaw?


Depends on the deal. I'd be willing to do Shaw for Hagelin straight up, ha! $3.9M for Shaw is much better than $6M for some of the other names being discussed.

26 years old, PKer, very nice FO% (although low #), not opposed to contact, potential 40 point guy, maybe more with Kessel...


You are going to have to add from the Penguins side to make such a deal. Nobody is making a one for one trade involving Hagelin unless you are getting an equally bad contract coming back.


Exactly. Take Hanzel for example. He has been a train wreck in Dallas. You'd be looking at taking someone with as much term or maybe a year more with a 4M hit or higher.

You could potentially find your 3C solution in Hanzel or he could be a complete flop and you have him for an additional year. So for me, to move Hagelin for another bad contract isnt very appealing.

I'm not sure you'd have to take a bad contract back. If you truly wanted to dump Hags, I'm sure Arizona would take a year and a half of his salary for a 3rd.

Pronger, Bolland, Datsyuk.....I'm sure I'm missing, but Arizona has a habit of picking up dead/bad contracts for other teams......at a price.

Taking on Bolland cost the Panthers Lawson Crouse (1st rounder, 11th overall) as well, in exchange for a conditional 2nd and a 3rd back.
Datsyuk went to Arizona along with the 16th overall pick, for the 20th overall, a 2nd rounder, and Joe Vitale.
Pronger went to Arizona along with Grossman, and Philly got Sam Gagner and a conditional 3rd or 4th round pick.

We would need to include something else of value for Arizona to take on Hagelin's contract. I still think if the Penguins retained 1M of Hagelin's salary (this year and next), more teams might be willing to bite on Hagelin. Better to clear 3M from the cap than zero million. Still wouldn't bring back a huge haul, but, I think those are the only two ways Hagelin gets dealt......include something else valuable, or retain salary.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:37 pm

FLPensFan wrote:We would need to include something else of value for Arizona to take on Hagelin's contract. I still think if the Penguins retained 1M of Hagelin's salary (this year and next), more teams might be willing to bite on Hagelin. Better to clear 3M from the cap than zero million. Still wouldn't bring back a huge haul, but, I think those are the only two ways Hagelin gets dealt......include something else valuable, or retain salary.


Did any of those players though actually suit up for Arizona? At least with Hagelin they get a player they can plug into the lineup.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby pens_CT on Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:51 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:We would need to include something else of value for Arizona to take on Hagelin's contract. I still think if the Penguins retained 1M of Hagelin's salary (this year and next), more teams might be willing to bite on Hagelin. Better to clear 3M from the cap than zero million. Still wouldn't bring back a huge haul, but, I think those are the only two ways Hagelin gets dealt......include something else valuable, or retain salary.


Did any of those players though actually suit up for Arizona? At least with Hagelin they get a player they can plug into the lineup.


Arizona took those guys to get to the cap floor since they have a bunch of young guys making peanuts.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Jim on Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:12 pm

And, being injured, insurance covered a good bit of the salary. So they were basically just taking cap hit and not actual expenses.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:16 pm

pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:We would need to include something else of value for Arizona to take on Hagelin's contract. I still think if the Penguins retained 1M of Hagelin's salary (this year and next), more teams might be willing to bite on Hagelin. Better to clear 3M from the cap than zero million. Still wouldn't bring back a huge haul, but, I think those are the only two ways Hagelin gets dealt......include something else valuable, or retain salary.


Did any of those players though actually suit up for Arizona? At least with Hagelin they get a player they can plug into the lineup.


Arizona took those guys to get to the cap floor since they have a bunch of young guys making peanuts.

Of course, but they didn't do it for cheap. Moved up in the 1st round in one deal, picked up a recent 1st round player (Crouse) in another deal, got Grossman (who was pretty decent for them for a few years) in the other deal.

Point being, they aren't just going to take Hagelin, and throw us a late round pick back. They'd ask for something else meaningful in order to take Hagelin.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby KG on Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:03 am

Just spitballing here....

What about bringing Sutter back? Before everyone dry heaves, don’t forget we had him and traded him before we had Sullivan and this system in tact. Rutherford has always liked him too. What if we could get him on the cheap with money going back?

Not too many viable options out there...
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:48 am

KG wrote:Just spitballing here....

What about bringing Sutter back? Before everyone dry heaves, don’t forget we had him and traded him before we had Sullivan and this system in tact. Rutherford has always liked him too. What if we could get him on the cheap with money going back?

Not too many viable options out there...

Sutter's biggest problem when he was here really hasn't changed......he failed to click with any linemates. He was horrible at setting people up. The majority of assists that he gets are 2nd assists that have little impact on the actual play, or show very little playmaking ability. During Sutter's last year here, I broke down all 12 of his assists. The post is on here somewhere, but the main thing was of the 12 assists, more than 50% were secondary, and of the remaining half, half of those were plays ANYBODY could make.....ie, pass to a guy wide open at the point who fires and scores.

He's also been injured a lot, missing 60 games in his first season, and about half of this season.

He's good on faceoffs, he can PK, he'll score you some goals.......but it is very doubtful that he has the ability to make Phil a threat on a 3rd line.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby DelPen on Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:48 am

Sutter's other problem is he can't competently assist a RW who is right handed. Couldn't do it with Kennedy where Staal had no problems. He would be a disaster and no better than McKegg trying to feed Phil.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby ville5 on Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:02 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
ville5 wrote:I'm not sure you'd have to take a bad contract back. If you truly wanted to dump Hags, I'm sure Arizona would take a year and a half of his salary for a 3rd.


If that was the case I think the Pens would have done it by now. I really hope when the Pens do make a trade for a 3C and get Rust back that young guys like Sprong and Simon arent moved to the bench to keep Hagelin in the lineup.

Who says GMJR wants to trade Hagelin?
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Great58 on Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:19 am

Jim wrote:And, being injured, insurance covered a good bit of the salary. So they were basically just taking cap hit and not actual expenses.

This is the key. Arizona is cash strapped, they take Cap hits but don’t pay actual money.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby ville5 on Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:13 pm

Great58 wrote:
Jim wrote:And, being injured, insurance covered a good bit of the salary. So they were basically just taking cap hit and not actual expenses.

This is the key. Arizona is cash strapped, they take Cap hits but don’t pay actual money.

Good points, keep forgetting their owner is strapped to the hilt in debt.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:59 pm

Jason Spezza a healthy scratch today for Dallas. Too rich for Penguins, but might add more to the "not trading the younger guys" narrative for Dallas.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby ville5 on Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:37 pm

Paul Martin on waivers.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby longtimefan on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:08 am

FLPensFan wrote:Jason Spezza a healthy scratch today for Dallas. Too rich for Penguins, but might add more to the "not trading the younger guys" narrative for Dallas.


You know, I've never considered Spezza as even a remote possibility. His cap hit is outrageous, he's not a great skater, not great defensively, and doesn't kill penalties. On the other hand, if you really want to roll three true offensive lines, he's the best fit I've seen, at least that would be available for a reasonable price. There just aren't any other options who have 955 games, 321 goals, and 878 points. He also hasn't been invisible in the playoffs, 22 goals and 65 points in 69 games. He's a veteran who has never won the cup. So, he at least intrigues me, especially only two seasons removed from a 33 goal season.

Dallas is well aware they're not going to be able to move his contract without a lot of creativity. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to healthy scratch him, or continue to force him to play out of position. He's been very clear about his preference to play in the middle. It also seemed to be an oil-vinegar match when Hitchcock was hired.

So I don't know exactly what Dallas is thinking. I do know they had scouts here Sunday, according to reports. With such a surplus of centers, and with such a defensively oriented coach, would Hagelin be of use? His contract ends the same time Spezza's does. Could they use a lefthanded defenseman to go with all their rightys? Like Cole. So, obviously, the Pens can't take the additional cap hit. If it improves Dallas on the ice though, why not work something out by retaining some salary? You're paying it anyway.

Spezza is 34. He's also over 54.5% on faceoffs for his career in Dallas. He's a right shot, which would be helpful as a contrast in the faceoff circle. Has he just completely lost it suddenly, or has his on ice struggles been more a product of an environment that moved him to wing, where he is nowhere near as effective? Or would he fit nicely at this stage of his career slotting in behind Sid and Geno? He certainly has a higher offensive ceiling then anyone else I can recall being discussed, even at his age.

So, would you consider moving Cole and Hagelin for Spezza and between $2.5M and $3.5M retained? Perhaps the Pens also receive a pick, but the retained salary will play a role. I'm not sure I'd need to get a pick back, considering the circumstances. He doesn't check all the boxes. He's also probably available if you can be creative. I doubt if anyone else available would be as qualified to feed Phil on a 3rd line.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby DelPen on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:21 am

Spezza would be great for the right deal but the right deal for us isn’t as good as what other team will do to overpay for him. A team like NJ could actually use him and take in the full cap hit if they think they are a contender at the deadline.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Steve Dave on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:32 am

It could work cap wise if Dallas retained $3.5 of Spezza’s contract if sending Hagelin. Would adding Cole ($2.1, UFA) entice Dallas, while sending Roussel ($2.0, UFA) back to even out the cap?

Spezza ($4.0) Roussel = $6.0 coming in
Hagelin Cole = $6.1 going out

Simon Crosby Sprong
Sheary Malkin Hornqvist
Guentzel Spezza Kessel
Roussel Sheahan Reaves
Kuhnhackl Rowney Rust*IR

Roussel can PK so he would push Kuhnhackl out.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby brwi on Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:23 am

I liked to see Eric Staal as 3C. He's showing he still has some skills going for him at 33 and obviously JR is real familiar with him. His cap hit is 3.5m now and through next year so he wouldn't be a rental this season. Two problems are a)Pens cap space and b)the Wild are right on the edge of a wild card spot and probably not looking to sell unless they suddenly tank. Wild are definitely built to win right NOW and are slammed against the cap with their window of opportunity maybe starting to close, so doubt they are really a realistic trade partner unless they are doing another move also. They obviously don't want a Hagelin or his salary back, but who does? Have to be a pick and throw-in player.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Jim on Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:38 am

Steve Dave wrote:It could work cap wise if Dallas retained $3.5 of Spezza’s contract if sending Hagelin. Would adding Cole ($2.1, UFA) entice Dallas, while sending Roussel ($2.0, UFA) back to even out the cap?

Spezza ($4.0) Roussel = $6.0 coming in
Hagelin Cole = $6.1 going out


If you can get Dallas to do this, I say go for it.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Jim on Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:40 am

brwi wrote:I liked to see Eric Staal as 3C. He's showing he still has some skills going for him at 33 and obviously JR is real familiar with him. His cap hit is 3.5m now and through next year so he wouldn't be a rental this season. Two problems are a)Pens cap space and b)the Wild are right on the edge of a wild card spot and probably not looking to sell unless they suddenly tank. Wild are definitely built to win right NOW and are slammed against the cap with their window of opportunity maybe starting to close, so doubt they are really a realistic trade partner unless they are doing another move also. They obviously don't want a Hagelin or his salary back, but who does? Have to be a pick and throw-in player.


Staal is one of the few bright spots for the Wild this year. I do not think they will move him unless the deal is really heavy in their favor.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Steve Dave on Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 am

Jim wrote:
Steve Dave wrote:It could work cap wise if Dallas retained $3.5 of Spezza’s contract if sending Hagelin. Would adding Cole ($2.1, UFA) entice Dallas, while sending Roussel ($2.0, UFA) back to even out the cap?

Spezza ($4.0) Roussel = $6.0 coming in
Hagelin Cole = $6.1 going out


If you can get Dallas to do this, I say go for it.

I think Hagelin would do well under Hitch as Longtimefan pointed out. Cole would also be of use for them. A pick/prospect may have to be added since they would be retaining $.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Pruezy11881 on Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:20 am

Steve Dave wrote:
Jim wrote:
Steve Dave wrote:It could work cap wise if Dallas retained $3.5 of Spezza’s contract if sending Hagelin. Would adding Cole ($2.1, UFA) entice Dallas, while sending Roussel ($2.0, UFA) back to even out the cap?

Spezza ($4.0) Roussel = $6.0 coming in
Hagelin Cole = $6.1 going out


If you can get Dallas to do this, I say go for it.

I think Hagelin would do well under Hitch as Longtimefan pointed out. Cole would also be of use for them. A pick/prospect may have to be added since they would be retaining $.

I think Cole would be a no go based on how Hitch used (didn't use) him in St. Louis.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:33 am

longtimefan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Jason Spezza a healthy scratch today for Dallas. Too rich for Penguins, but might add more to the "not trading the younger guys" narrative for Dallas.


You know, I've never considered Spezza as even a remote possibility. His cap hit is outrageous, he's not a great skater, not great defensively, and doesn't kill penalties. On the other hand, if you really want to roll three true offensive lines, he's the best fit I've seen, at least that would be available for a reasonable price. There just aren't any other options who have 955 games, 321 goals, and 878 points. He also hasn't been invisible in the playoffs, 22 goals and 65 points in 69 games. He's a veteran who has never won the cup. So, he at least intrigues me, especially only two seasons removed from a 33 goal season.

Dallas is well aware they're not going to be able to move his contract without a lot of creativity. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to healthy scratch him, or continue to force him to play out of position. He's been very clear about his preference to play in the middle. It also seemed to be an oil-vinegar match when Hitchcock was hired.

So I don't know exactly what Dallas is thinking. I do know they had scouts here Sunday, according to reports. With such a surplus of centers, and with such a defensively oriented coach, would Hagelin be of use? His contract ends the same time Spezza's does. Could they use a lefthanded defenseman to go with all their rightys? Like Cole. So, obviously, the Pens can't take the additional cap hit. If it improves Dallas on the ice though, why not work something out by retaining some salary? You're paying it anyway.

Spezza is 34. He's also over 54.5% on faceoffs for his career in Dallas. He's a right shot, which would be helpful as a contrast in the faceoff circle. Has he just completely lost it suddenly, or has his on ice struggles been more a product of an environment that moved him to wing, where he is nowhere near as effective? Or would he fit nicely at this stage of his career slotting in behind Sid and Geno? He certainly has a higher offensive ceiling then anyone else I can recall being discussed, even at his age.

So, would you consider moving Cole and Hagelin for Spezza and between $2.5M and $3.5M retained? Perhaps the Pens also receive a pick, but the retained salary will play a role. I'm not sure I'd need to get a pick back, considering the circumstances. He doesn't check all the boxes. He's also probably available if you can be creative. I doubt if anyone else available would be as qualified to feed Phil on a 3rd line.

I'll have to try and catch some Dallas games this week....assuming Spezza plays at all. He's 34, never been a great skater, and my first thought is, I wonder if he's lost a step this year at his age. I know he was playing mainly wing, and while he can play both, I have read a few articles that he DOES NOT like playing wing. Biggest thing right now is, his numbers are way down, but his overall ice time has dropped almost 3 minutes from his norms. He's been a 16-17 minutes player the last 3 years, and he is only averaging 13 and a half this season.

More investigation is needed to see how he is playing, but it might be too late to get a good read on his play at this point if he's already been healthy scratched once.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:41 am

Jim wrote:
Steve Dave wrote:It could work cap wise if Dallas retained $3.5 of Spezza’s contract if sending Hagelin. Would adding Cole ($2.1, UFA) entice Dallas, while sending Roussel ($2.0, UFA) back to even out the cap?

Spezza ($4.0) Roussel = $6.0 coming in
Hagelin Cole = $6.1 going out


If you can get Dallas to do this, I say go for it.

Hard to get a good judge on Roussel or Spezza at this point. Both of their numbers are down, but both of them are getting about 3 less minutes ice time per game than normal.
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