The Pens direction so far

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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby no name on Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:28 pm

Henry Hank wrote:
And This is the first time in quite a few years the Presidents winner also won the Cup.


It wasn't that long ago, Detroit just did it in 2008 against the Pens. In the salary cap era, President's Trophy winners have won the Cup 25% of the time. It's been given out as a trophy 27 times and the winner went on to win the Cup eight times, nearly a third of the time. Three additional times went to the Finals and lost. Five more times went to the conference finals and lost. Almost two thirds of the time you make it to the final four. I think people expect a better chance of winning than that but it's very likely the best probability of winning of any other spot. I remember looking at the last 20 or so years a couple seasons ago and the President's Trophy winner won the Cup more than anyone else.

President's Trophy isn't a guarantee to win a Cup but it's clearly a good sign that you've got a relatively strong chance. The occasional first round upset must give people the false perception that it's a curse but it's definitely not.


Wow nice research HH.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby offsides on Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:50 pm

Henry Hank wrote:
And This is the first time in quite a few years the Presidents winner also won the Cup.


It wasn't that long ago, Detroit just did it in 2008 against the Pens. In the salary cap era, President's Trophy winners have won the Cup 25% of the time. It's been given out as a trophy 27 times and the winner went on to win the Cup eight times, nearly a third of the time. Three additional times went to the Finals and lost. Five more times went to the conference finals and lost. Almost two thirds of the time you make it to the final four. I think people expect a better chance of winning than that but it's very likely the best probability of winning of any other spot. I remember looking at the last 20 or so years a couple seasons ago and the President's Trophy winner won the Cup more than anyone else.

President's Trophy isn't a guarantee to win a Cup but it's clearly a good sign that you've got a relatively strong chance. The occasional first round upset must give people the false perception that it's a curse but it's definitely not.


Thanks for the info. To be honest, I thought the percentage was slightly higher than 25%. Seems to me the best team in hockey should win the Cup 40 to 50 percent of the time. Then again, that 16 win grind can really wear on some teams, even very good teams.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:02 pm

Excellent way to look at things!

I wonder if the Refs having a separate rule book for playoff hockey compared to regular season has anything to do with that number not being higher.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Henry Hank on Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:10 pm

I doubt the best records gives you that probability in any sport, maybe the NBA. Hockey playoffs are too long and grueling to give you that kind of guarantee. Regardless, most important thing is that winning the President's Trophy gives you a better chance of winning the Cup, historically, than any other single spot. It's clearly something to strive for and regular season success isn't completely meaningless.

It's meaningless if you are always good in the regular season but never get anywhere in the playoffs, of course. The Pens, as of late, have fallen into that category more recently. I've been guilty myself of making the Capitals comparison but I think this season put them beyond that. This version of the Caps has never even made it to the third round. Pens have one a Cup, made two SC finals, and three conference finals in six years. I think we're all guilty of some hyperbole in our disappointment.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby offsides on Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:32 pm

Henry Hank wrote:I doubt the best records gives you that probability in any sport, maybe the NBA. Hockey playoffs are too long and grueling to give you that kind of guarantee. Regardless, most important thing is that winning the President's Trophy gives you a better chance of winning the Cup, historically, than any other single spot. It's clearly something to strive for and regular season success isn't completely meaningless.

It's meaningless if you are always good in the regular season but never get anywhere in the playoffs, of course. The Pens, as of late, have fallen into that category more recently. I've been guilty myself of making the Capitals comparison but I think this season put them beyond that. This version of the Caps has never even made it to the third round. Pens have one a Cup, made two SC finals, and three conference finals in six years. I think we're all guilty of some hyperbole in our disappointment.


Well said HH. There are a ton of teams out there that just don't compete very well and play dull boring hockey. That being said, if we have the two "best players in the world", we should be doing at least as much as we have, probably more.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:32 pm

I honestly feel like what the PENS need is a healthy team going into the playoffs. All the expectations of a continued favorite have been followed by recent playoff disappointments no small part by injuries. Would be nice to have a healthy core come May of 2014.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby offsides on Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:35 pm

taz71 wrote:I honestly feel like what the PENS need is a healthy team going into the playoffs. All the expectations of a continued favorite have been followed by recent playoff disappointments no small part by injuries. Would be nice to have a healthy core come May of 2014.


Don't think we could get much healthier than we were this year.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Scott on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:38 am

offsides wrote:
taz71 wrote:I honestly feel like what the PENS need is a healthy team going into the playoffs. All the expectations of a continued favorite have been followed by recent playoff disappointments no small part by injuries. Would be nice to have a healthy core come May of 2014.


Don't think we could get much healthier than we were this year.


We could be healthy and will it matter? Professional sports is copycat. The Canadiens in 2010 showed the blueprint how to keep the pens contained....provided you have the personel to do it. Thus year the isle did not have the goaltending otherwise it would have been one and done. The senators just did not have the players to compete. Then Bruins show the world get again how to put the high flying pens skating in mud.

Everything has to align properly otherwise they won't hoist another cup in the near future. Bylsma will never out coach the opposing coach. Ever. Anyone at lgp could do what he does for lot less money.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:26 am

Scott wrote:
Bylsma will never out coach the opposing coach. Ever. Anyone at lgp could do what he does for lot less money.


Image
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:32 am

I think that was hyperbole. Anyone at LGP could not do as well as Bylsma. I am confident that there are coaches that have never been paid to do their job that could do the job as well or better though.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby topshelf on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:36 am

Gaucho wrote:
Scott wrote:
Bylsma will never out coach the opposing coach. Ever. Anyone at lgp could do what he does for lot less money.


Image


LOL... I like this one:

Image
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:41 am

offsides wrote:
Henry Hank wrote:
And This is the first time in quite a few years the Presidents winner also won the Cup.


It wasn't that long ago, Detroit just did it in 2008 against the Pens. In the salary cap era, President's Trophy winners have won the Cup 25% of the time. It's been given out as a trophy 27 times and the winner went on to win the Cup eight times, nearly a third of the time. Three additional times went to the Finals and lost. Five more times went to the conference finals and lost. Almost two thirds of the time you make it to the final four. I think people expect a better chance of winning than that but it's very likely the best probability of winning of any other spot. I remember looking at the last 20 or so years a couple seasons ago and the President's Trophy winner won the Cup more than anyone else.

President's Trophy isn't a guarantee to win a Cup but it's clearly a good sign that you've got a relatively strong chance. The occasional first round upset must give people the false perception that it's a curse but it's definitely not.


Thanks for the info. To be honest, I thought the percentage was slightly higher than 25%. Seems to me the best team in hockey should win the Cup 40 to 50 percent of the time. Then again, that 16 win grind can really wear on some teams, even very good teams.


In my mind all the statistics are nice but the issue isnt just that we have good/great regular seasons and dont win the cup.

Its that we have good/great regular seasons and have horrible playoff losses where we almost dont compete or show major flaws. I dont think after the Isles series anyone here felt warm and fuzzy and that was a win. Point being if the Flyers and Bruins series were wars and we just end up losing I dont think this board would be as worried regarding a bunch of topics.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:24 am

Idoit40fans wrote:I think that was hyperbole. Anyone at LGP could not do as well as Bylsma. I am confident that there are coaches that have never been paid to do their job that could do the job as well or better though.


I can only speak for myself, but I know I couldn't even coach a peewee team. I'm sure that some LGPers could certainly do that and more.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby SolidSnake on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:29 pm

Here's an honest question to Bylsma supporters, do you feel like Bylsma is the best coach in the NHL?
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:35 pm

SolidSnake wrote:Here's an honest question to Bylsma supporters, do you feel like Bylsma is the best coach in the NHL?


No.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby SolidSnake on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:45 pm

See, after the decision to sign him to an extension I tried to just forget about it and pull for the penguins but in the end I don't think I can. The team is being coached by a guy that never shoulders any blame and uses excuses as reasons for loses. Everyone has bought into Bylsma and the ones that don't are shipped off. This team has taken on an identity and philosophy that I don't agree with.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Firebird on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:21 pm

Sad part is....you day all these players are getting old.....what does that make us?
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:30 pm

Firebird wrote:Sad part is....you day all these players are getting old.....what does that make us?


Either experienced or old, depending on the outcome.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:50 pm

I can't completely figure out the Bylsma hate.

Dan Bylsma became the fastest coach to 200 coaching victories in the history of the National Hockey League when Bylsma’s Pittsburgh Penguins posted a 3-1 victory over the Ottawa Senators on April 22, 2013. This was his 200th victory in his 316th game coaching in the NHL.

Not to mention:
Consider his accomplishments (so far):
Stanley Cup championship
Jack Adams Award
Atlantic Division title
Three straight 100-point seasons
A 15-game winning streak as well as 12-, 11- and 10-game winning streaks
Winningest playoff coach in team history
Five consecutive playoff berths
The second-most wins (51) and points (108) in franchise history
Second in team history in wins (201)

This is worth something. Doesn't make him the best coach in the NHL. But he is definitely not garbage.

He is 42 years old has a lot to learn
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:56 pm

Dan Bylsma has been a massive playoff failure since 2009 being badly out coached in each series the Pens lost (save maybe vs. Tampa) other than that his "I don't believe in match-ups/get to our game" philosophy has been abused by other coaches
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Beveridge on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:57 pm

SolidSnake wrote:Here's an honest question to Bylsma supporters, do you feel like Bylsma is the best coach in the NHL?


Not at all. I'd probably place him in top 10 of active coaches (I don't know if he'd crack top 5 or not if I made a list). He is better (in my mind obviously) than any known names available if he had been let go.


I've just accepted that no matter who the coach was here, he would be blamed if this team didn't win the cup. Therefore, it's not even worth my time to discuss it anymore.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby offsides on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:58 pm

taz71 wrote:I can't completely figure out the Bylsma hate.

Dan Bylsma became the fastest coach to 200 coaching victories in the history of the National Hockey League when Bylsma’s Pittsburgh Penguins posted a 3-1 victory over the Ottawa Senators on April 22, 2013. This was his 200th victory in his 316th game coaching in the NHL.

Not to mention:
Consider his accomplishments (so far):
Stanley Cup championship
Jack Adams Award
Atlantic Division title
Three straight 100-point seasons
A 15-game winning streak as well as 12-, 11- and 10-game winning streaks
Winningest playoff coach in team history
Five consecutive playoff berths
The second-most wins (51) and points (108) in franchise history
Second in team history in wins (201)

This is worth something. Doesn't make him the best coach in the NHL. But he is definitely not garbage.

He is 42 years old has a lot to learn


He does coach the "two best players in the world". To me anyone could be successful with those two alone. He also is 3 and 4 in his last 4 playoff runs. We will never know if another coach could have gotten more. I tend to think he could have.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby interstorm on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:00 pm

taz71 wrote:I can't completely figure out the Bylsma hate.

Dan Bylsma became the fastest coach to 200 coaching victories in the history of the National Hockey League when Bylsma’s Pittsburgh Penguins posted a 3-1 victory over the Ottawa Senators on April 22, 2013. This was his 200th victory in his 316th game coaching in the NHL.

Not to mention:
Consider his accomplishments (so far):
Stanley Cup championship
Jack Adams Award
Atlantic Division title
Three straight 100-point seasons
A 15-game winning streak as well as 12-, 11- and 10-game winning streaks
Winningest playoff coach in team history
Five consecutive playoff berths
The second-most wins (51) and points (108) in franchise history
Second in team history in wins (201)

This is worth something. Doesn't make him the best coach in the NHL. But he is definitely not garbage.

He is 42 years old has a lot to learn


also to state further obvious facts -- the player's themselves voted him the coach they would most like to play for (www.playerspoll.ca) two years in a row (wasn't done this year i believe). before even making the "country club" remarks, he was also voted top 5 in most demanding.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:16 pm

Let's look at the playoffs:
2012-2013 Made it to the ECF and blew it. I can blame Dan for this ... but a lot of the blame goes to Malkin, Crosby, Letang. On the other hand if you are coaching the PENS and allow 3 goals in like 9 periods you would expect to win those games right? Especially coaching "two best players in the world".
2011-2012 Lots of distraction but was an absolute disaster players lost control. Played Fleury to demise of the team.
2010-2011 Lose to Tampa without "two best players in the world".
2009-2010 Killed off by a hot goalie Jaroslav Halak. Blamed fatigue by last 2 cup runs

One thing Bylsma did well and he is not getting credit for is benching Fleury in favor of Voukon. This was a gutsy coaching decision
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Crankshaft on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:18 pm

SolidSnake wrote:Here's an honest question to Bylsma supporters, do you feel like Bylsma is the best coach in the NHL?


I don't think there is a "best coach in the NHL". This isn't NHL 2013. There isn't a list of coaches with overall scores. It's all subjective. Other than some blatantly obvious examples (Ed Olczyk sp?) there aren't really many "bad" coaches. Each have strengths and weaknesses and success is dictated by the talent, how it's best utilized combined with the ownership group and team. Would Mike Babcock be considered as good of a coach if he was saddled with the Winnipeg Jets/Florida Panthers/Calgary Flames situation. Why was Bill Belichick a joke as the head coach in Cleveland and now he's a coaching legend in New England?

Edit: With that said, do I think that Bylsma is a good fit for this team? There are some aspects in which I wish he was better (match up/in game adjustments). In the heat of the moment, as emotions ran high after being swept, I wanted to see some change - any change. Now that I've calmed down, I understand that he's the best coach for the job right now and there was not a suitable replacement at the time.
Last edited by Crankshaft on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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