So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Defence21 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:33 pm

IanMoran wrote:
joker10277 wrote:I have no problem with the trades. I do have a problem with the drafting and developement of any player that is not a dman, farm system is really bad on the forward side, really bad!

Kunitz / Neal prove that we should always go best available

Yeah, I really don't get why people would prefer to draft a less-talented and less-likely-to-succeed player simply because he is a forward and the Penguins "need" forwards now. There are a few things I don't get about this. First, most players the Penguins draft, regardless of position, are going to be several years away from the NHL. How can you draft based on need when you don't know what the needs will be in three or four years? Second, as you said, Kunitz and Neal are fantastic trade returns for defensemen many/most Penguins fans felt held little or no trade value. Third, the Penguins have Crosby and Malkin as forwards. While forward may be an area the Penguins lack in prospects, having these two young forwards, along with Neal, Kunitz, and Dupuis locked up long term reduces the need to target specific positions in the draft. Take the best player available regardless of position, and when the player becomes NHL-ready, if there's no room for him, trade him. Trust me, teams always are looking for young, talented defensemen on cheap entry-level contracts. It's not a hard sell.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:40 pm

I think what you are missing is most people think they are taking less talented players or specifically asking for in trades because they are dmen.

It flips the argument around.

Also remember that we need cheap entry level forwards for the next 4 years so why wouldn't we just draft those since PMD's trade value takes so long to develop.

I get you point by when people bring up Kunitz and Neal they are bringing up established payers we traded. 5 and 7 years after we drafted them.

Point being it doesn't add up with other arguments and filling our needs. We need players now or over the next 3 years. By our previous trade history we are 4 years away from making this happen in to grab enough players.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby scals37 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:15 am

Welp, Shero failed to draft forwards that are ready to play in the nhl next year... Fire shero
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:07 am

Not sure anyone is saying that. Just discussing the current state of our roster and how it will be affected moving forward.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Penspal on Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:30 am

SolidSnake wrote:This upcoming disaster of a season will tell a lot

Can I quote you on that ;)
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Defence21 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:54 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:I think what you are missing is most people think they are taking less talented players or specifically asking for in trades because they are dmen.

It flips the argument around.

Also remember that we need cheap entry level forwards for the next 4 years so why wouldn't we just draft those since PMD's trade value takes so long to develop.

I get you point by when people bring up Kunitz and Neal they are bringing up established payers we traded. 5 and 7 years after we drafted them.

Point being it doesn't add up with other arguments and filling our needs. We need players now or over the next 3 years. By our previous trade history we are 4 years away from making this happen in to grab enough players.

I don't understand the first part,so maybe you can elaborate a little?

The Penguins will need some cheap forwards moving into the years ahead. That said, those forwards will play third and fourth line roles, predominantly, given that the top two lines appear to be set with Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis and Bennett-Malkin-Neal (or some combination containing those six). Cheap fourth liners are a dime-a-dozen and can be had every year via free agency, trade, and waivers. Good third liners can get a bit more pricey, but not so much so that they're unobtainable.

Defense is important on many levels. One, Martin's contract will be done in two years and a replacement will be needed. Two, with Niskanen playing a role in the top-four, it's easy to see that defensemen can be just as expensive, if not more expensive, than forwards in many cases. Breeding internal defensemen will allow the team to fill out their back end with the precise talent they want, while also having tradebale assets to help improve the offense.

Lastly, as for Kunitz and Neal, I'll agree in one instance -- Whitney for Kunitz -- the Penguins acquired an older, established player. But in the Goligoski for Neal trade, the obtained an experienced winger who was on an upward trend. And, let's remember, these aren't cookie-cutter trades. Who is to say that, if Shero wants a young winger, he couldn't trade a rookie Maatta, for example, for a rookie Hertl, for example. Two guys of similar age, similar upside, similar pay, and different positions. These trades don't have to happen five or six years down the line -- they just have in the past because that was when they needed to happen.

Best player available is the way to go. I;d much rather take an A+ defensemen with a real good chance of playing in the NHL than take an A forward with a good chance of playing in the NHL. I want best value for the pick -- even if at a position that is saturated. You've got to look at draft picks as assets. You wouldn't take four one dollar bills because you have too many fives, would you? You'd take the five, because it has more value. If you don't need that five later on, you can exchange it. Drafting 18-year-olds is an inexact science, especially once you get out of the top-10 picks. Take the guys with the best chances to succeed, then figure the rest out when the time comes.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:36 am

Defence21 wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:I think what you are missing is most people think they are taking less talented players or specifically asking for in trades because they are dmen.

It flips the argument around.

Also remember that we need cheap entry level forwards for the next 4 years so why wouldn't we just draft those since PMD's trade value takes so long to develop.

I get you point by when people bring up Kunitz and Neal they are bringing up established payers we traded. 5 and 7 years after we drafted them.

Point being it doesn't add up with other arguments and filling our needs. We need players now or over the next 3 years. By our previous trade history we are 4 years away from making this happen in to grab enough players.

I don't understand the first part,so maybe you can elaborate a little?

The Penguins will need some cheap forwards moving into the years ahead. That said, those forwards will play third and fourth line roles, predominantly, given that the top two lines appear to be set with Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis and Bennett-Malkin-Neal (or some combination containing those six). Cheap fourth liners are a dime-a-dozen and can be had every year via free agency, trade, and waivers. Good third liners can get a bit more pricey, but not so much so that they're unobtainable.

Defense is important on many levels. One, Martin's contract will be done in two years and a replacement will be needed. Two, with Niskanen playing a role in the top-four, it's easy to see that defensemen can be just as expensive, if not more expensive, than forwards in many cases. Breeding internal defensemen will allow the team to fill out their back end with the precise talent they want, while also having tradebale assets to help improve the offense.

Lastly, as for Kunitz and Neal, I'll agree in one instance -- Whitney for Kunitz -- the Penguins acquired an older, established player. But in the Goligoski for Neal trade, the obtained an experienced winger who was on an upward trend. And, let's remember, these aren't cookie-cutter trades. Who is to say that, if Shero wants a young winger, he couldn't trade a rookie Maatta, for example, for a rookie Hertl, for example. Two guys of similar age, similar upside, similar pay, and different positions. These trades don't have to happen five or six years down the line -- they just have in the past because that was when they needed to happen.

Best player available is the way to go. I;d much rather take an A+ defensemen with a real good chance of playing in the NHL than take an A forward with a good chance of playing in the NHL. I want best value for the pick -- even if at a position that is saturated. You've got to look at draft picks as assets. You wouldn't take four one dollar bills because you have too many fives, would you? You'd take the five, because it has more value. If you don't need that five later on, you can exchange it. Drafting 18-year-olds is an inexact science, especially once you get out of the top-10 picks. Take the guys with the best chances to succeed, then figure the rest out when the time comes.


What I was saying is you stated or were leaning towards most people think they drafted these defense types because they are the best players available. But It's opposite for most - people are assuming that Shero ha a specific plan to draft and trade for these exact types. He hasn't taken them because they were the best available, he targets them. It's kind of opposite.

Again just saying your opinion is based on Shero taking these guys because they are the best available - not sure that is the exact case. He seems to target them for a specific plan.

My point on the trades really had nothing to do with Kunitz or Neal. What I mean is folks use those as the gold standards for this Shero plan. But Whitney and Gogo were established enough at that point. So if those are used as an example we are saying that Shero is still 3-4 years from this plan having any real effect. To go with no players in the system right now to grab bottom fwd or d pairing minutes.

I disagree that 4th liners are a dime a dozen moving forward.. We have had years to fill out our bottom lines and defense with little success in the playoffs for those specific roles.

And next year looks to be our worst in years for bottom lines and bottom defense pairings so not sure how that fits in.

Plus, with tighter cap rules we can't count on UFAs for two reasons: first they are more expensive than entry level deals and less will be available. Second we are running out of assets to trade for those types (assuming we don't want to keep dumping our PMD prospects for another Morrow. Rentals will completely void our organizational depth, even one or two more of those trades will kill us.

In general I agree with a lot of your points but I'm just concerned this drafting plan due to not being able to trade them right away and the cap by the time it really works our two headed monster will be in their 30s and we will have missed 4 or 5 years of honest cup runs.
Last edited by BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Pens15 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:44 am

Now that Beau Bennett is "graduated", do the Pens have one single forward in their system who is anything more than a long-shot to be a top six forward in the NHL? Maybe Zlobin? Blueger?

In that sense, the Iginla trade is actually more costly than it looked on paper, because Hanowski and Agostino both have NHL upside.

You may be able to defend Shero's draft picks one by one in a vacuum, but the overall state of affairs is ugly and if that doesn't fall on him, nothing does.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:53 am

Pens15 wrote:Now that Beau Bennett is "graduated", do the Pens have one single forward in their system who is anything more than a long-shot to be a top six forward in the NHL? Maybe Zlobin? Blueger?

In that sense, the Iginla trade is actually more costly than it looked on paper, because Hanowski and Agostino both have NHL upside.

You may be able to defend Shero's draft picks one by one in a vacuum, but the overall state of affairs is ugly and if that doesn't fall on him, nothing does.


To that point do they have bottom 6 prospects either? People claim bottom 6 are easy to come by but man our 3rd and 4th lines and bottom pairing defense look pretty bad for next year.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby pens_CT on Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:33 am

Pens15 wrote:Now that Beau Bennett is "graduated", do the Pens have one single forward in their system who is anything more than a long-shot to be a top six forward in the NHL? Maybe Zlobin? Blueger?

In that sense, the Iginla trade is actually more costly than it looked on paper, because Hanowski and Agostino both have NHL upside.

You may be able to defend Shero's draft picks one by one in a vacuum, but the overall state of affairs is ugly and if that doesn't fall on him, nothing does.

Archibald, Wilson, and Rust are all NHL prospects. Are they can't miss prospects, the answer is no, but they have potential. Also they are all in college still so its probably not until 2014-15 before we see them in camp.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Defence21 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:15 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:I think what you are missing is most people think they are taking less talented players or specifically asking for in trades because they are dmen.

It flips the argument around.

Also remember that we need cheap entry level forwards for the next 4 years so why wouldn't we just draft those since PMD's trade value takes so long to develop.

I get you point by when people bring up Kunitz and Neal they are bringing up established payers we traded. 5 and 7 years after we drafted them.

Point being it doesn't add up with other arguments and filling our needs. We need players now or over the next 3 years. By our previous trade history we are 4 years away from making this happen in to grab enough players.

I don't understand the first part,so maybe you can elaborate a little?

The Penguins will need some cheap forwards moving into the years ahead. That said, those forwards will play third and fourth line roles, predominantly, given that the top two lines appear to be set with Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis and Bennett-Malkin-Neal (or some combination containing those six). Cheap fourth liners are a dime-a-dozen and can be had every year via free agency, trade, and waivers. Good third liners can get a bit more pricey, but not so much so that they're unobtainable.

Defense is important on many levels. One, Martin's contract will be done in two years and a replacement will be needed. Two, with Niskanen playing a role in the top-four, it's easy to see that defensemen can be just as expensive, if not more expensive, than forwards in many cases. Breeding internal defensemen will allow the team to fill out their back end with the precise talent they want, while also having tradebale assets to help improve the offense.

Lastly, as for Kunitz and Neal, I'll agree in one instance -- Whitney for Kunitz -- the Penguins acquired an older, established player. But in the Goligoski for Neal trade, the obtained an experienced winger who was on an upward trend. And, let's remember, these aren't cookie-cutter trades. Who is to say that, if Shero wants a young winger, he couldn't trade a rookie Maatta, for example, for a rookie Hertl, for example. Two guys of similar age, similar upside, similar pay, and different positions. These trades don't have to happen five or six years down the line -- they just have in the past because that was when they needed to happen.

Best player available is the way to go. I;d much rather take an A+ defensemen with a real good chance of playing in the NHL than take an A forward with a good chance of playing in the NHL. I want best value for the pick -- even if at a position that is saturated. You've got to look at draft picks as assets. You wouldn't take four one dollar bills because you have too many fives, would you? You'd take the five, because it has more value. If you don't need that five later on, you can exchange it. Drafting 18-year-olds is an inexact science, especially once you get out of the top-10 picks. Take the guys with the best chances to succeed, then figure the rest out when the time comes.


What I was saying is you stated or were leaning towards most people think they drafted these defense types because they are the best players available. But It's opposite for most - people are assuming that Shero ha a specific plan to draft and trade for these exact types. He hasn't taken them because they were the best available, he targets them. It's kind of opposite.

Again just saying your opinion is based on Shero taking these guys because they are the best available - not sure that is the exact case. He seems to target them for a specific plan.

My point on the trades really had nothing to do with Kunitz or Neal. What I mean is folks use those as the gold standards for this Shero plan. But Whitney and Gogo were established enough at that point. So if those are used as an example we are saying that Shero is still 3-4 years from this plan having any real effect. To go with no players in the system right now to grab bottom fwd or d pairing minutes.

I disagree that 4th liners are a dime a dozen moving forward.. We have had years to fill out our bottom lines and defense with little success in the playoffs for those specific roles.

And next year looks to be our worst in years for bottom lines and bottom defense pairings so not sure how that fits in.

Plus, with tighter cap rules we can't count on UFAs for two reasons: first they are more expensive than entry level deals and less will be available. Second we are running out of assets to trade for those types (assuming we don't want to keep dumping our PMD prospects for another Morrow. Rentals will completely void our organizational depth, even one or two more of those trades will kill us.

In general I agree with a lot of your points but I'm just concerned this drafting plan due to not being able to trade them right away and the cap by the time it really works our two headed monster will be in their 30s and we will have missed 4 or 5 years of honest cup runs.

Gotcha. I think there's a little bit of both going on. By that, I mean that Shero and his staff appear most comfortable with drafting defense and developing defense. As such, they're draft boards may lean a bit more heavily on defensemen, even though other teams and draft agencies may have other players -- specifically forwards -- ranked higher in some instances.

One more thing on defensemen. While Shero waited a good while to trade Whitney and Goligoski, that doesn't mean he has to in the future. As I said, who is to say a team deep with forward prospects doesn't engage in a trade with Shero for a near-ready defense prospect. My previous example of Maatta for Hertl -- and only because their names were the first to come to my mind -- is an example of this. Another thing to be reminded of: Whitney and Goligoski were traded at times when many fans viewed them to be untradable or limited in trade value, yet Shero acquired two long-term wingers and some spare parts in return for them. This shows that defensemen who can skate and move the puck are highly valuable in this league and a very good commodity to have (because they come at a steep price via free agency or trade, because they carry a lot of trade value, and because you can never have enough of them).

As for the bottom six, a couple observations. Last year, the bottom six was a discombobulated mess, which is why I believe Shero shipped Kennedy, isn't sold on retaining Cooke, and hasn't offered a contract to Adams. But, before last year, it's arguable that the Penguins had one of the better/best bottom six groupings in the league. Cooke-Staal-Kennedy was an excellent third line, while the likes of Adams, Asham, Rupp, Vitale, etc proved very capable of being mean/nasty, physical, and capable both defensively and offensively (relatively speaking, of course). We're sitting at July 4, and free agency has yet to commence, whilst Shero has cleared as many as three or four bottom six spots to fill via free agency, waivers and/or trade. It's much, much too early to make any predictions as to how good or bad the bottom six will be this season given that no more than one player (Sutter) is firmly entrenched in a bottom six role.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby DelPen on Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:56 pm

Meh, Murray is a good bottom pairing but unless Niskanen is moved we can't afford him.

Jokinen can pair very well on the 3rd line with Sutter. Just need a big, fast grinder for that right wing. And he can competently fill in for Sid or Geno when hurt and play well.

Morrow was good depth and leadership but didn't do anything else.

Iginla was a trade that I think was done to prevent Boston from getting him. There was no need for him at all especially after getting Morrow.

I'm not going to miss anyone though we gave up or the picks. It's just getting big names doesn't always work out and this team didn't need big moves.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby midd on Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:02 am

Agreed but right now we have no cap space. I'll take a slow, yet crease clearing Murray over Orpik.



ffemtreed wrote:I am still hoping we can retain Doug Murray for our #5 / #6 D pair. He might be slow, but we need his physical game and I was quite surprised by his ability to make the correct first pass out of the zone and he never panicked with the puck. Although at his price tag it probably a too much for the pens to pay for a #5/6 D man. We could however use him to help develop one of our young offensively gifted D man be letting Murray stay at home protecting him giving the young guy protected minutes as a #6 and some time on the #2 PP, which is a major talent gap on our team right now.

Letang -- Orpik
Martin -- Despres (its time for him to sink or swim)
Murry -- whichever young D wins the spot in camp
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:05 am

Gaucho wrote:Hindsight is irrelevant.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Gaucho on Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:26 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Hindsight is irrelevant.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana


"We were quoted out of context - it was great." - Paddy McAloon
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:47 am

Gaucho wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Hindsight is irrelevant.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana


"We were quoted out of context - it was great." - Paddy McAloon


“It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err.” - Mahatma Ghandi
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby penny lane on Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:53 am

No one could be prepared for a broken jaw to Sidney. With Sid in the line up, more time to find the location for Iginla. Scouts needed to report Iginla lost shooting the puck speed. And, despite GM Ray Shero's talk, Joikenen may not be a penguin.
Though, I am not happy that J Morrow now resides in the boston organization. Hindsight is 20-20; perfect. I was as happy as 95% of the folks around here.
All have to adjust to the 82 regular season game. The team still lacks the BIG body around the net with hands, and has since 2008.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Gaucho on Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:59 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Hindsight is irrelevant.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana


"We were quoted out of context - it was great." - Paddy McAloon


“It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err.” - Mahatma Ghandi


Yeah, I'd say you better start following your own advice and get over yourself, humble mon.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Malkamaniac on Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:07 am

lol
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby profpolisci on Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:56 pm

Gaucho wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Hindsight is irrelevant.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana


"We were quoted out of context - it was great." - Paddy McAloon


“It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err.” - Mahatma Ghandi


Yeah, I'd say you better start following your own advice and get over yourself, humble mon.

Anything that's liable to happen usually does, and, probably will - Bill Cardille
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Gaucho on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:26 pm

"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." - Groucho Marx
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Nizzy on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:20 pm

After 2008, I thought our team got much worse. Out Hossa, Out Malone. In Fedotenko, In Satan. I said, 2nd round loss..they have to wait for some other prospects to come up...then boom cup. Kunitz trade was great. Talbot stepped up.

Pens won't have the pressure next year. They won't have a super team.

All cup teams have 1-2 young players on entry level deals that come up big. Bennett and probably Despres will be both guys. I'd like to see some WBS guys try and get some playing time on the 4th line. Hopefully Glass tears his ACL and is out for the year.

I still feel like Shero put to many eggs into the basket last year. I just see us winning it all next year. Scuderi is going to be big in his first year back.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:31 pm

Nizzy wrote:Hopefully Glass tears his ACL and is out for the year.



Hopefully your cat pisses all over your keyboard.
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby GSdrums87 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:32 pm

"The thing about quotes on the internet is, you can never know for sure if they're true." --Benjamin Franklin
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Re: So 3/4ths of the deadline pickups are "goners"

Postby penny lane on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:49 pm

GSdrums87 wrote:"The thing about quotes on the internet is, you can never know for sure if they're true." --Benjamin Franklin

:lol: :lol: :!:
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