Lockout

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Re: Lockout

Postby Tim Thomasen on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:27 pm

viva la ben wrote:All games through Dec 14th and the 2013 ASG have been cancelled.


Fantastic :face: :face: :face:
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Re: Lockout

Postby Tico Rick on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:40 pm

viva la ben wrote:All games through Dec 14th and the 2013 ASG have been cancelled.


So the Pens-Caps New Year' Eve game is still on!

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Re: Lockout

Postby canaan on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:42 pm

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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:45 pm

Who cares about the ASG anyway.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Tim Thomasen on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:46 pm

Gaucho wrote:Who cares about the ASG anyway.


I kinda cared since Columbus is only 3 1/2 hours from Pittsburgh, I was planning to attend one of the ASG events.

If it was anywhere else, I pmost likely wouldn't give a damn.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:50 pm

I was just going to edit my post and add: "except for the people who'll actually be there." So I get your point.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Hawkeynut on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:51 pm

Closer to the armageddon! Glad another chunk of games and potential revenue/salary is gone down the toilet.

NEXT UP?

Full season cancellation. Awww yeah. :D

Yeah I am disappointed of this whole situation, but I am hoping they put such a horrible mark on the NHL that they all feel this stoppage in their pocket books for YEARS to come!

Here is to a few franchises folding and a few NHLers on the unemployment line! :fist:
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Re: Lockout

Postby Tim Thomasen on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:54 pm

I want to believe that if there's another season long lockout, that labor peace will finally to real but I wouldn't put it past this group to have another lockout in 6-7 years or so when the CBA expires again. This will keep going on until both sides learn to work together.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:11 pm

Tim Thomasen wrote:I want to believe that if there's another season long lockout, that labor peace will finally to real but I wouldn't put it past this group to have another lockout in 6-7 years or so when the CBA expires again. This will keep going on until both sides learn to work together.


That's a pretty safe bet. Either the owners make concessions from what they want and hold another lockout, or they get everything they want and the players strike.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:11 pm

I better get my ASG deposit back
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Re: Lockout

Postby CERV96 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:12 pm

MRandall25 wrote:I better get my ASG deposit back


Same here just sent an email.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:17 pm

Hawkeynut wrote:
Here is to a few franchises folding and a few NHLers on the unemployment line! :fist:


:thumbdown:
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:44 pm

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Re: Lockout

Postby Steve on Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:49 pm

schoolyard bullies? :face:

Man, I wish I went to a school where the schoolyard bully gave me 100 bucks, and then the next day said he needed 5 bucks of it back, or else.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:01 pm

I guess you never danced for the schoolyard bully.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Tico Rick on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:07 pm

Ray Whitney in happier days:

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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:46 pm

Whitney understands that going down from 57 percent of the revenue pie to 50 percent was a reality players would have to likely accept after what happened in the NFL and NBA labor deals last season. But like many players, he’s frustrated by the league’s insistence on a number of changes to player contracting rights.

"It’s not fair, to be honest," said Whitney.

Agreeing with Fehr, Whitney said the league’s demands on contracting rights would lead to too restrictive a system, especially with demands such as five-year limit on contracts and a five percent salary variation ceiling.

"There are some incredibly smart GMs out there, guys like Ken Holland and Lou Lamoriello," said Whitney. "They’re not allowed to say anything but what the league is trying to do now is say, 'We don’t trust you GMs, we want to put in a system that tells you how to run your teams now. We’re going to cut your legs out. Kenny, I know you’ve got a genius mind when it comes to contracts and maneuvering things, but we’re not going to allow that anymore. We’re going to make it so the worst GM in the league can compete with you because your hands are tied.'"

To be fair, the league is looking to tighten up the system because costs got out of control in the last CBA, especially on the players’ second contracts, which is why the league wants to push UFA to eight years service or 28 years old and why the league is seeking changes to salary arbitration.

Whitney understands the owners need some fixes but he just wants a fair deal, not an agreement that will crush his side.

"Otherwise, we’ll just be in another work stoppage in five years, which makes no sense," said Whitney. "All of this makes no sense. We could have been playing a long time ago."


If Whitney's opinion is representative of the majority of players (and it likely is), then it sounds like the players are pushing "Make Whole" because the league is unwilling to compromise on the contracting issues. Since the league's October proposal, Bettman has been insistent that the owners were not willing to budge on their proposed contract restrictions. The latest seems to be that they're willing to talk about about the 5% escalator, but still won't budge on the rest.

IMO, I don't see why they need both a 5% escalator AND a 5 year max contract length. They're both proposed to stop these "back diving" contracts that circumvent that cap, but either on their own would be effective in doing that - so why the need for both? I wouldn't doubt the NHL could get away with dropping "Make Whole" completely if they gave on the contractual issues.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:23 pm

Allan Walsh ‏@walsha
$182M over 5 yrs. RT@GinoRedaTSN: The nxt 2 wk cancellation of gms will cost owners $266M, players $126M. Yet they're only $182M apart.

https://twitter.com/walsha/status/272099734267760640
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Re: Lockout

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:53 pm

tfrizz wrote:Allan Walsh ‏@walsha
$182M over 5 yrs. RT@GinoRedaTSN: The nxt 2 wk cancellation of gms will cost owners $266M, players $126M. Yet they're only $182M apart.

https://twitter.com/walsha/status/272099734267760640


Haha, yeah this reminds me of people talking politics and quietly ignoring a major fact.

Like how one side has no expenses and the other does. Changes the math quite a bit.

His tweets have been annoying most of the time anyways, like his issue on how telling it was that not all the owners were showing up.
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Re: Lockout

Postby shmenguin on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:50 pm

tfrizz wrote:Allan Walsh ‏@walsha
$182M over 5 yrs. RT@GinoRedaTSN: The nxt 2 wk cancellation of gms will cost owners $266M, players $126M. Yet they're only $182M apart.

https://twitter.com/walsha/status/272099734267760640


More fairy tale crap from another hockey writer. With this thinking, the lockout in 2004 was a humongous mistake - even though it saved the NHL
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Re: Lockout

Postby Bathgate on Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:18 pm

If the players decertify their union, what nuclear option of their own might the owners counter with? I can brainstorm a few possibilities:

- Temporarily suspend the biggest money-losing franchises that agree to be suspended (and thus reducing jobs). This is not unprecedented in the NHL. The Pittsburgh Pirates and the original Ottawa Senators franchises of the 1920’s were suspended around 1930. The Senators missed a year and returned to the league for another year or two before folding, while the suspended Pirates never did return and the franchise was ultimately revoked.

- Restructure the NHL business model as one entity instead of 30 entities. Existing franchise owners would own shares in the single entity. The number of shares owned by each “franchise” would be determined by some formula related to current value and income streams. Players’ salaries would be negotiated by the league. This might mitigate or stop the free-agent bidding wars that the PA relishes. I believe MLS uses this type of business model and won a court case to continue it based on there being other leagues around the world for players to go.

- Open up the training camps for business and invite players from all over the world to compete for spots. Some minor leaguers and many European-league guys displaced by NHL players would love a shot at the NHL. These players would have to agree to a CBA similar to the league’s most recent best offer. This might induce the majority of the current NHLers to cave and return.

Obviously each of these possibilities is fraught with risks and uncertainties, but so is PA decertification and might be preferable by the owners to caving to union tactics.
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Re: Lockout

Postby rarst17 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:20 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
tfrizz wrote:Allan Walsh ‏@walsha
$182M over 5 yrs. RT@GinoRedaTSN: The nxt 2 wk cancellation of gms will cost owners $266M, players $126M. Yet they're only $182M apart.

https://twitter.com/walsha/status/272099734267760640


Haha, yeah this reminds me of people talking politics and quietly ignoring a major fact.

Like how one side has no expenses and the other does. Changes the math quite a bit.


I think they're also leaving out the fact that those numbers are completely wrong. If the owners got $266m for every $126 million the players get, then I don't think we'd be in this situation.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Big Easy Pens Fan on Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:25 pm

Thia "make whole" thing is just going to cause the owners to cancel the season sooner than they might. In '94 they started in February after lengthy discussions. Owners won't negotiate (I use that term loosely) much longer with the "make whole" stipulation in the equasion, because basic economics dictates they can't. Every day that goes by, the chances of a settlement dwindles.

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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:39 pm

rarst17 wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
tfrizz wrote:Allan Walsh ‏@walsha
$182M over 5 yrs. RT@GinoRedaTSN: The nxt 2 wk cancellation of gms will cost owners $266M, players $126M. Yet they're only $182M apart.

https://twitter.com/walsha/status/272099734267760640


Haha, yeah this reminds me of people talking politics and quietly ignoring a major fact.

Like how one side has no expenses and the other does. Changes the math quite a bit.


I think they're also leaving out the fact that those numbers are completely wrong. If the owners got $266m for every $126 million the players get, then I don't think we'd be in this situation.


The HRR split isn't applied until the end of the year, and I think that $266m is also counting arena and non-HRR stuff.
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:41 pm

I truely believe, the owners will allow 3/4 of the contracting rights to be given to the players as long as the numbers and "make whole" end up in their favor. The owners will not bend on the contracting rights until the players soften on the core economics. The contracting rights they want is to handcuff the GMs into playing fair. Fehr i think knows this but holds the money the most important thing in this, like the owners do. But the players union wants thoes contracting rights.

Fehr has not budged on the money, ok his last proposal looked like that but it added up to the same 55% flowing down to the 50 after 4 years.

Fehr wants both, i think the players would bend on the moeny as long as their contracting rights were protected.
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