Fleury's last chance?

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Fleury's last chance?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:51 pm

I was debating with a good buddy of mine who's a fanatical Rangers fan. He of course bows to Hank and explains how Fleury is terrible. I of course said you can give Hank all the Vezinas, but he still can't get to the cup, anyway, I digress...

Fleury has taken a lot of flack on Penguins message boards. I have always been a staunch supporter of his, but I'm beginning to believe the Pens are preparing to say their goodbyes to Fleury if he doesn't deliver this season. Let's look at the facts:

1. Signed Vokoun to a $2M/2 year deal.
-that's not exactly someone signed to be just a back-up.

2. Pens draft two goalies this year.

When the Vokoun trade/signing happened, and this could just be my interpretation of things reportedly said by the Pens org, but that Fleury needs to get his sh*t together and they're hoping Vokoun will light a fire under his @$$. To me these are not things that occur when you really are optimistic about your starting Goalie.

For the record, I still don't fault Fleury. I know he had a weak playoff run, but I still believe it was him being overworked from bailing out the Pens night in and night out all season that really led to his poor play. That being said, I really feel like the Pens are laying the groundwork for possibly parting ways with Fleury if he's less than stellar this upcoming season/post-season.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:51 pm

The sky is the limit for Fleury.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Tico Rick on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:56 pm

I believe you are 100% correct, Hugo.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby GenoMachino71 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:56 pm

Fleury's last chance??

uhhhh, no

dont know why it would be his "last chance" either
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:58 pm

GenoMachino71 wrote:Fleury's last chance??

uhhhh, no

dont know why it would be his "last chance" either


Can you support your opinion?
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby meow on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:59 pm

Luongo is available. Just sayin'
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby scals37 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:00 pm

I wouldn't necessarily say last chance.. but if he delivers another stinker playoff performance, this town will turn on him fast, especially if a player like Vokoun is behind him and is playing mediocre or better
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:01 pm

meow wrote:Luongo is available. Just sayin'


Look, I don't want to trade Fleury. I still believe in him and I certainly don't want Luongo. Luongo played behind one of the best overall teams in the league the past few seasons and could not deliver. If Luongo were new to this, I'd say he'd be great to look into. This is not to say he'll never win a cup, but if the Pens were to part ways with Fleury at some point, I'd definitely look into different options.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:02 pm

scals37 wrote:I wouldn't necessarily say last chance.. but if he delivers another stinker playoff performance, this town will turn on him fast, especially if a player like Vokoun is behind him and is playing mediocre or better


If a player brought in for $2M outshines him, what do you think that says to the organization?
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby IntangibleBeer on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:04 pm

I don't think this is Fleury's last chance by any stretch. He had a spectacular year (regular season), but a) played too much and b) was hung out to dry by the poor defensive play in front of him in the playoffs.

Vokoun has been signed up to be a backup goaltender. He's 36 years old and has just rehabilitated himself from an injury. I don't think there's any way he takes Fleury's job away from him, but should provide an much more consistent backup than Johnson. If Vokoun can play 30 games and win 60-70% and Flower does the same, you're going to see a much more rested and confident goaltender in the playoffs and the Stanley Cup might have a new summer home.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby meow on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:08 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
meow wrote:Luongo is available. Just sayin'


Look, I don't want to trade Fleury. I still believe in him and I certainly don't want Luongo. Luongo played behind one of the best overall teams in the league the past few seasons and could not deliver. If Luongo were new to this, I'd say he'd be great to look into. This is not to say he'll never win a cup, but if the Pens were to part ways with Fleury at some point, I'd definitely look into different options.

There is a pretty good explaination for Vokoun and for the drafting of goaltenders this year. Vokoun - no way around it, you have to have an NHL capable back-up. Why not go out and get the best available goalie. As for drafting, the goalie cupboard is pretty bare - fill 'er up.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby IntangibleBeer on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:09 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
meow wrote:Luongo is available. Just sayin'


Look, I don't want to trade Fleury. I still believe in him and I certainly don't want Luongo. Luongo played behind one of the best overall teams in the league the past few seasons and could not deliver. If Luongo were new to this, I'd say he'd be great to look into. This is not to say he'll never win a cup, but if the Pens were to part ways with Fleury at some point, I'd definitely look into different options.


Luongo is a major headcase. :scared:

You said it yourself. He had a loaded team in front of him and should have come up with a Cup victory. Instead, they choked. Tim Thomas outplayed him and this year they didn't even reach the final. No way I want him here.

The goaltending prospects are just that - prospects. You gotta get players into the pipeline because even the superstars retire.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby newarenanow on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:09 pm

I don't think it's a "last chance" IMO.

Vokoun was signed to take some of the workload off of MAF. IF they wanted to send a message, I don't think they sign a 36 year old goalie for two years. As for teh draft, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pens haven't drafted a goaltender in a few years (since 2008) I believe. The two goalies they selected were like 83rd and 113th overall. Chances are, these guys don't see the NHL, or see limited time (only time will tell).

I think MAF is still their go to guy and will be for the next few years. I think if he continues to be inconsitent when it matters most, the Pens will one day move on. But I dont' think this year is the time. Outside of Game 5 (I think) last year, he played well in the playoffs. This year he sucked outside of Game 5.

But so did the whole team.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Froggy on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:11 pm

Yes. How dare a goalie play half a dozen poor games after carrying the team to the playoffs pretty much singlehandedly, and following it up by setting a career high in wins. Run that turd out of town...
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:12 pm

Drafting goalies in later rounds because we have 0 goalie prospects is an indictment of Fleury somehow? That's unreal. The Kings used their first pick last year on a goalie...indictment of Quick/Bernier? The Bruins used their first round pick on a goalie...indictment of Rask?
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:13 pm

IntangibleBeer wrote:I don't think this is Fleury's last chance by any stretch. He had a spectacular year (regular season), but a) played too much and b) was hung out to dry by the poor defensive play in front of him in the playoffs.

Vokoun has been signed up to be a backup goaltender. He's 36 years old and has just rehabilitated himself from an injury. I don't think there's any way he takes Fleury's job away from him, but should provide an much more consistent backup than Johnson. If Vokoun can play 30 games and win 60-70% and Flower does the same, you're going to see a much more rested and confident goaltender in the playoffs and the Stanley Cup might have a new summer home.


Vokoun has been signed to be more than a backup, but not in the way many think. He's a veteran goalie who played a long time as an elite-level starter. He's coming in here with the hopes that he can provide some guidance and help Fleury get over the top.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:16 pm

newarenanow wrote:I don't think it's a "last chance" IMO.

Vokoun was signed to take some of the workload off of MAF. IF they wanted to send a message, I don't think they sign a 36 year old goalie for two years. As for teh draft, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pens haven't drafted a goaltender in a few years (since 2008) I believe. The two goalies they selected were like 83rd and 113th overall. Chances are, these guys don't see the NHL, or see limited time (only time will tell).

I think MAF is still their go to guy and will be for the next few years. I think if he continues to be inconsitent when it matters most, the Pens will one day move on. But I dont' think this year is the time. Outside of Game 5 (I think) last year, he played well in the playoffs. This year he sucked outside of Game 5.

But so did the whole team.


Since Pechuriskiy returned to Russia (and may be out of hockey completely?) the Pens goalie pool consists of Fleury, Killeen, and Goepfert.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:17 pm

newarenanow wrote:I don't think it's a "last chance" IMO.

Vokoun was signed to take some of the workload off of MAF. IF they wanted to send a message, I don't think they sign a 36 year old goalie for two years. As for teh draft, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pens haven't drafted a goaltender in a few years (since 2008) I believe. The two goalies they selected were like 83rd and 113th overall. Chances are, these guys don't see the NHL, or see limited time (only time will tell).

I think MAF is still their go to guy and will be for the next few years. I think if he continues to be inconsitent when it matters most, the Pens will one day move on. But I dont' think this year is the time. Outside of Game 5 (I think) last year, he played well in the playoffs. This year he sucked outside of Game 5.

But so did the whole team.


I didn't mean Vokoun was brought in to take MAFs job, obviously not. Here's the thing, I love the idea of having a goaltending tandem like this. I think people around the league are underestimating how much stronger this makes the Pens. I fully expect Fleury to perform better with some of the slack taken off. I really believe our D was so atrocious this past season and it was MAF who bailed them out, yet the D got the credit. BUT, if this doesn't work and he has a stinker this year, I think this will make the Pens re-evaluate.

As far as your draft comments...third round goalies do see NHL time. 3rd round is actually a good sign. Rarely are goaltenders taken earlier.
Lunqvist: 7th round
Tim Thomas: 9th round
Pekka Rinne: 8th round
Mike Smith: 5th round

The list goes on and on. Goalies taken in the 1st and 2nd round don't happen as frequently. Rare cases like Fleury, Brodeur, Luongo...
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:18 pm

I'd bet on Fleury at least playing out his current contract.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:19 pm

mikey287 wrote:Drafting goalies in later rounds because we have 0 goalie prospects is an indictment of Fleury somehow? That's unreal. The Kings used their first pick last year on a goalie...indictment of Quick/Bernier? The Bruins used their first round pick on a goalie...indictment of Rask?


It's more of the timing of all of it. Of course we need Goalie prospects, but the timing of all this just seems weird: First round exit, signing of Vokoun, drafting two goalies in the 3rd and 4th round? I don't know...just seems more than coincidence.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Tico Rick on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:20 pm

The Pens' D stunk out the joint in the first round last spring. What happened? RS dumped Michalek, and is looking to sign Suter and dump Martin. Fleury stunk out the joint in the first round last spring. What happened? RS went and signed Vokoun. Fleury's regular season success, as well as having won a Cup, saved him from Michalek's (and soon to be, Martin's) fate. But I think he will be on a very short leash next year. You just can't pay that much for a guy whose going to be such a train wreck in the playoffs.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Kraftster on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:23 pm

No. Drafting two goalies says nothing about MAF in Pittsburgh and his current contract.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:23 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Drafting goalies in later rounds because we have 0 goalie prospects is an indictment of Fleury somehow? That's unreal. The Kings used their first pick last year on a goalie...indictment of Quick/Bernier? The Bruins used their first round pick on a goalie...indictment of Rask?


It's more of the timing of all of it. Of course we need Goalie prospects, but the timing of all this just seems weird: First round exit, signing of Vokoun, drafting two goalies in the 3rd and 4th round? I don't know...just seems more than coincidence.


Seems like standard operating procedure to me when looking at the rest of the league. Some teams will tell you that they try to draft a goalie every year or at least 2 out of 3 to keep the system stocked. And us signing a backup goalie because we didn't have one is "more than coincidence?" Sure, he's a high level backup, but isn't that what we want? Isn't that addressing a weakness? Johnson sucked last year.

If we had traded Despres and 1st for Luongo. If we had traded our first and Harrington for Lindback and signed Vokoun also...then, ok, you got something there, something is up...but even if we drafted Oscar Dansk at 22 in this draft, I wouldn't have thought it odd at all. That's just standard draft procedure. The weakness in the organization was from below Fleury and down. No 2, no 3, no 4, no prospects. Gotta get those things somehow...very standard.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Froggy on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:25 pm

Thanks for saying that more clearly and less furiously than I'd be able to, mikey
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby newarenanow on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:27 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:I didn't mean Vokoun was brought in to take MAFs job, obviously not. Here's the thing, I love the idea of having a goaltending tandem like this. I think people around the league are underestimating how much stronger this makes the Pens. I fully expect Fleury to perform better with some of the slack taken off. I really believe our D was so atrocious this past season and it was MAF who bailed them out, yet the D got the credit. BUT, if this doesn't work and he has a stinker this year, I think this will make the Pens re-evaluate.


Gotcha, and I agree that is why the pens brought him in.

I think if he has a stinker of a year, they won't move on. I don't think this is a "last chance". I see them sticking with him at least through this contract. If he continues to be inconsistent and poor like in the FLyers series, then they may move on after that.

But IMO, and I could be wrong, but in the last 6 years, I think MAF only had 2 years where he had a bad playoffs overall. I think in 06-07 he played well against the Senators. Obviously he played well in 07-08 and 08-09 making it to the finals and winning the cup.
And I think outside of one game, he played well against Tampa last year.

He sucked against Montreal and Philly, sucked hard.

But overall, I think in 4 of the 6 years he was in the playoffs, he played realitively well and did what he needed to do to be an effective goaltender. He was no Quick, but no one plays that great over a long period of time, even Quick. He had a playoff of a lifetime. He may prove me wrong going forward, but there have been goalies that blow it up on a great playoff run who either flame away, or have productive careers but don't have that type of performance again.

But I do agree with you that if the Philly playoff trend continues, then you have to look and reassess things. But I don't think this year is the year that if he does that again, he is gone. I think his past has been good enough.
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