LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:24 pm

Factorial wrote:Let's assume the evidence is irrefutable that Assad did use them. Then what?


Put him on trial at the ICC.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:26 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:
Factorial wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:
Factorial wrote:Let's assume the evidence is irrefutable that Assad did use them. Then what?


Send in the peacekeepers.



UN?


Yeah.

There will be far more dire international ramifications engaging Syria than there were Iraq and Afghanistan.


UN peace keepers are useless..... I agree about the ramifications but I don't think anyone (outside of the war mongers McCain and Grahmn) are talking about more that punitive strikes at the point.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:34 pm

GaryRissling wrote:
Factorial wrote:Let's assume the evidence is irrefutable that Assad did use them. Then what?


Put him on trial at the ICC.



And just sit by as he uses them over and over killing millions until he is captured to sent to the ICC? Also, I suppose Bush, Cheney, Kissinger, the ghosts of LBJ, FDR, etc should be sent there as well?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:43 pm

Factorial wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:
Factorial wrote:Let's assume the evidence is irrefutable that Assad did use them. Then what?


Put him on trial at the ICC.



And just sit by as he uses them over and over killing millions until he is captured to sent to the ICC? Also, I suppose Bush, Cheney, Kissinger, the ghosts of LBJ, FDR, etc should be sent their as well?


First off, your initial hypothetical pertained to this instance alone - which even if we make that significant leap - would be Assad's only time using chemical weapons. To then assume that he would now want to kill millions of people is rather preposterous, though we've seen what the cost of our type of regime change has been to innocent iraqis.

Our presidents should be held accountable, though I would prefer that as a nation which portends to stand for the rule of law, that we would be able to hold them accountable on our own soil. The past three admins should be made to answer some difficult questions.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:53 pm

I'm with you on Iraq and was against it at the time. Again, outside of McCain and Grahmn I'm not hearing anyone calling for putting troops on the ground or overthrowing Assad and my response was to your repeated calls for us to not getting involved regardless of what is happening.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:01 pm

Factorial wrote:I'm with you on Iraq and was against it at the time. Again, outside of McCain and Grahmn I'm not hearing anyone calling for putting troops on the ground or overthrowing Assad and my response was to your repeated calls for us to not getting involved regardless of what is happening.


Once we commit to the conflict though, you have to assume that there is a real chance of us being dragged in further. I would even argue that there is a significant contingent of officials which would find a boots-on-the-ground scenario very desirable and would try to push us there.

After the Gulf of Tonkin and Iraq, I would not rush to judgement on any event that leads to a sudden big payoff for defense contractors, oil companies, politicians, etc.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:13 pm

In 1988, during the waning days of Iraq's war with Iran, the United States learned through satellite imagery that Iran was about to gain a major strategic advantage by exploiting a hole in Iraqi defenses. U.S. intelligence officials conveyed the location of the Iranian troops to Iraq, fully aware that Hussein's military would attack with chemical weapons, including sarin, a lethal nerve agent.

The intelligence included imagery and maps about Iranian troop movements, as well as the locations of Iranian logistics facilities and details about Iranian air defenses. The Iraqis used mustard gas and sarin prior to four major offensives in early 1988 that relied on U.S. satellite imagery, maps, and other intelligence. These attacks helped to tilt the war in Iraq's favor and bring Iran to the negotiating table, and they ensured that the Reagan administration's long-standing policy of securing an Iraqi victory would succeed. But they were also the last in a series of chemical strikes stretching back several years that the Reagan administration knew about and didn't disclose.



http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... assed_iran
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby newarenanow on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:13 pm

Why has there always been so much violence in the Middle East? Is it because of their religion, or are they just pissed they live in a desert.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:23 pm

newarenanow wrote:Why has there always been so much violence in the Middle East? Is it because of their religion, or are they just pissed they live in a desert.


It's because after World War I and the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Allied Powers divided the region among them with complete disregard to historical borders and also broke every single promise they made to their Arab allies. That is at least one big reason for what we're having to deal with today.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:25 pm

Far be it for me to suggest that McCain and Graham could just be protecting the bottom lines of some of their biggest donors with regards to Syria, but...well...maybe it isn't actually so far...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthomps ... rial-base/

In 2012, the Department of Defense received $118 billion for weapons procurement. Next year, it will receive less than $100 billion — a lot less if the deficit-cutting mechanism called sequestration again kicks in. Tony Capaccio of Bloomberg News revealed last week that sequestration could drag down budget authority for weapons procurement by another 16% from the administration’s already reduced 2014 request, to a figure somewhere in the mid-eighty billions.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:27 pm

Are you referring to our allies from WWI? Because I don't recall that we had any Arab allies. Between Jabal Shammar, the Ottoman Empire, and the Dervish State, they were all firmly Central Powers.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:29 pm

Politics at it's best. Because we sell so many weapons to Israel's neighbors, we have to sell more weapons to Israel. Jesus.

"In interviews here, US and Israeli officials said initial work toward a new 10-year military aid package, which would extend through 2027, is focusing on a full spectrum of Israeli concerns, including military modernization needs, new threats from regional instability and the erosion of Israel’s so-called qualitative military edge due to US arms sales in the Mideast," "Defense News" writes, adding "Under the existing US $30 billion aid agreement signed in 2007, negotiators from both sides did not specifically address or attempt to calculate Israel’s QME security concerns in annual foreign military financing levels prescribed by the 10-year package."


http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/ ... 3&fid=1725
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:32 pm

Also: if the local oil sheiks want to preserve "peace" in their region to keep the pumps safe and flowing, let THEM invade Syria.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:35 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:Are you referring to our allies from WWI? Because I don't recall that we had any Arab allies. Between Jabal Shammar, the Ottoman Empire, and the Dervish State, they were all firmly Central Powers.


I was mainly referring to France and the UK.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:35 pm

GaryRissling wrote:Politics at it's best. Because we sell so many weapons to Israel's neighbors, we have to sell more weapons to Israel.


= profit
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:37 pm

Gaucho wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:Are you referring to our allies from WWI? Because I don't recall that we had any Arab allies. Between Jabal Shammar, the Ottoman Empire, and the Dervish State, they were all firmly Central Powers.


I was mainly referring to France and the UK.


Sorry, I misread your post. That makes sense now.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby PensFanInDC on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:38 pm

I really don't want to go to war
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:59 pm

Can I just ask, what is the point of a highly intrusive and unconstitutional domestic surveillance program with limited oversight if, when it actually does intercept several communications from a guy who is obviously pondering questions regarding martyrdom to a known outspoken advocate of jihad in a foreign country, they do nothing? And those communications go on for over a year.

I cannot think of a better argument against domestic surveillance than the Hasan case.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... -fort-hood
Meanwhile, Hasan kept writing Awlaki. Between January and May 2009, he sent the radical cleric more than a dozen emails, and received two relatively benign responses. In one message, ostensibly about Palestinians firing unguided rockets into Israel, Hasan asked Awlaki whether "indiscriminately killing civilians" was acceptable. Two days later, he sent another message answering his own question: "Hamas and the Muslims hate to hurt the innocent but they have no choice if their going to have a chance to survive, flourish, and deter the zionist enemy. The recompense for an evil is an evil." (Hasan's emails contained a number of typos.)
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:17 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:It's the difference between performing a test, analyzing the results and declaring failure and drawing a conclusion without ever performing the test.

Not all tests are necessary to having a good idea of the outcome, of course. For example, I do not need to test shoot myself in the face with a shotgun to have a pretty good idea how that will play out.

shafnutz05 wrote:Do we know that the Syrian rebels themselves weren't behind this attack?

That's been my worry since the first attack a couple months ago. This war has been raging for a few years now, many army outposts and stockpiles have been overrun and fallen into rebel hands. Given one of their more celebrated figureheads was videoed cutting out an Assad soldier's heart and eating it on camera, I'm not too sure gassing a few civilians here and there to provoke a response from the West is beyond them.

The situations where the weapons have been deployed sound kind of fishy, too. I mean, tactically the government forces have been winning almost every engagement. So it makes little sense to launch an NBC strike in that context when just a few months ago when the battlefield situation was less tenable he refrained.

I dunno, that's trundling down Conspiracy Lane at that point. But I am unmoved by the evidence in the court of public opinion at the present.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:27 pm

newarenanow wrote:Why has there always been so much violence in the Middle East? Is it because of their religion, or are they just pissed they live in a desert.


Some of it's tribal, but a lot of it is also against american interventionism, e.g.;

* helping to establish and empower a non-muslim ethnocracy in the region to the exclusion of Palestinians
* overthrowing of a legitimate iranian government and establishment of an oppressive pro-US leader
* aiding then-ally Iraq in its instigation of war with Iran
* now we can add, helping to coordinate chemical weapons attacks with the Sadaam regime against Iran in 1988
* by some accounts starving upwards of 1 million Iraqis in the 1990's through futile sanctions ostensibly designed to end the reign of our former ally
* Support for oppressive regimes in Egypt, Barhain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc
* Initiating an unjustifiable war against Iraq and ripping a country apart
* Conducting night raids and drone strikes against muslims not engaged in combat, with a pretentious lack of due diligence (signature strikes)
* corrupting the rule of law to incarcerate political dissidents
* using secondary drone strikes to target first responders of initial strike
* expansion of military bases and operations throughout the region
* Etc
* Etc
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Troy Loney on Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:31 pm

I think you should replace american with "western". The US is late to this party.

I mean i'm sure your aware that Europe has done their share to destabilize the region, but your post was very singular on the US.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:37 pm

Troy Loney wrote:I think you should replace american with "western". The US is late to this party.

I mean i'm sure your aware that Europe has done their share to destabilize the region, but your post was very singular on the US.


Fair point, as it does extend back into colonialism; though I would say that the current anguish is mostly directed at the US.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:54 pm

GaryRissling wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:I think you should replace american with "western". The US is late to this party.

I mean i'm sure your aware that Europe has done their share to destabilize the region, but your post was very singular on the US.


Fair point, as it does extend back into colonialism; though I would say that the current anguish is mostly directed at the US.


One could argue the violence in that area of the world far exceeds any western intervention, dating back at least as far as the Safavids, Ottomans (Selim, etc), and Mughals.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:01 pm

Or dating even more back to the crusades. At which point we're back at Western intervention. Which is not to say that Western intervention has been responsible for everything that plagues the region.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:02 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:I think you should replace american with "western". The US is late to this party.

I mean i'm sure your aware that Europe has done their share to destabilize the region, but your post was very singular on the US.


Fair point, as it does extend back into colonialism; though I would say that the current anguish is mostly directed at the US.


One could argue the violence in that area of the world far exceeds any western intervention, dating back at least as far as the Safavids, Ottomans (Selim, etc), and Mughals.


I know people will argue that, but I have an issue with that sentiment being applied dismissively as if the actions of western powers are of less consequence because it's a "historically violent" region. Europe has had a pretty violent history as well.

I mean where would Napoleon rank against his middle-east contemporaries?
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