A take on the Pens all time roster

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby longtimefan on Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:58 pm

I'm bored this Saturday afternoon. And tired of talking about the same subjects over and over. The only thing new is you've got a bunch of players testing positive for COVID19 in Florida and Arizona, including Auston Matthews. So I figured something different to debate. I've been a fan since 1968, attending games since '75, and a season ticket holder since '85. I've seen some incredible hockey talent come through. I'm doing this largely from the top of my head, so be kind if there's an egregious error. I'm also old enough to have memory lapses. :) But here's my quick take on an all time Penguin roster. It's quite an impressive team.

Forwards

Centers- Lemieux, Crosby, Malkin, Francis
My quick take is this is likely the best in NHL history. I put Ronnie behind Geno because of longevity, and Sid behind Mario, simply because I believe the only thing that keeps Mario from being considered the best ever was his injury and illness history. There's no argument for the top four. For honorable mentions, depending on your criteria, you could include Bullard, Apps, Larouche. Perhaps Staal?

Left Wings- Stevens, Guentzel, Kunitz, Straka
Jake picked the right position to ascend quickly. :D A special honorable mention to Lowell MacDonald. Others would include Errey, and, for a short
period, Petr Nedved. Not the deepest position on the team.

Right Wings- Jagr, Mullen, Recchi, Tocchet
It's a who's who from the '90's. Jean Pronovost and Rick Kehoe both have arguments for spots. They were the stars of the '70's and early '80's
Especially with the relatively short tenures of Recchi and Tocchet. But I'll give the nod to the Cup winners. Kovalev deserves an honorable mention,
and perhaps Dupuis and Hornqvist.

Defense- Coffey, Murphy, Letang, Gonchar, Carlyle, Burrows
The two HOFers lead the way, and Letang's resume is going to look pretty nice when he retires. Gonchar's already does, and Carlyle did win a Norris
Trophy pre-Mario. I'll also include Dave Burrows, a great defensive defenseman of the '70's. He spent a lot of time here, and brought Carlyle+ when he
was traded to Toronto. He was recognized as one of the best defensive defenseman in the league in a different era. Ron Stackhouse deserves a
special honorable mention. He was booed mercilessly for not being physical, but it blurs the fact he was a strong offensive defense in his time. His
size and the times made him a major scapegoat.

Goaltenders- Fleury and Barrasso
It's pretty cut and dry. Murray hasn't been around long enough, even with two Cups. Denis Herron was a good goalie, and Michel Dion put one of the best single seasons together that I've seen in '80-'81. The stats don't tell the tale. Moose Hedberg made an impression, and Kenny Wregget was a good goalie in his own right. And you have to give special mention to Les Binkley, the team's first star.

So, just my take to kill some tome. Any glaring omissions?
longtimefan
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,274
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby pens_CT on Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:36 pm

I guess the question would be when you say Penguins all time roster are we talking the best players who played a portion of their career for the Psns, or are we talking the best players who spent most of their career here?

For example I would agree that Recchi & Tocchet are probably two of the top four RWs when you look at their total careers Pens + non-Pens seasons. I would put Pronovost & Kehoe above them based on what they did as Penguins.

Too bad Stackhouse played in the 70s, it would have been interesting to see what kind of offensive numbers he would have put up in today's league.

Overall I think you put together a pretty solid list.
pens_CT
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,743
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:47 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby Daniel on Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:03 pm

pens_CT wrote:I guess the question would be when you say Penguins all time roster are we talking the best players who played a portion of their career for the Psns, or are we talking the best players who spent most of their career here?

For example I would agree that Recchi & Tocchet are probably two of the top four RWs when you look at their total careers Pens + non-Pens seasons. I would put Pronovost & Kehoe above them based on what they did as Penguins.

Too bad Stackhouse played in the 70s, it would have been interesting to see what kind of offensive numbers he would have put up in today's league.

Overall I think you put together a pretty solid list.


Would you put Gonchar into that same criteria? If so who replaces him? Heck if you go down that path Coffey and Murphy could be lumped into the discussion, ya know?
Daniel
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,490
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: Dallas

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby Steve Dave on Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:14 pm

Daniel wrote:
pens_CT wrote:I guess the question would be when you say Penguins all time roster are we talking the best players who played a portion of their career for the Psns, or are we talking the best players who spent most of their career here?

For example I would agree that Recchi & Tocchet are probably two of the top four RWs when you look at their total careers Pens + non-Pens seasons. I would put Pronovost & Kehoe above them based on what they did as Penguins.

Too bad Stackhouse played in the 70s, it would have been interesting to see what kind of offensive numbers he would have put up in today's league.

Overall I think you put together a pretty solid list.


Would you put Gonchar into that same criteria? If so who replaces him? Heck if you go down that path Coffey and Murphy could be lumped into the discussion, ya know?

As long as Kunitz is on the team. He’s one of my all time favs. He’s also a 4x Cup champ. He should make the team just for his hit on Timmonen.
Steve Dave
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,848
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:09 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:45 pm

Give me Zubov over Letang every day and twice on Sunday.
thehockeyguru
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,518
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby pens_CT on Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:47 pm

Daniel wrote:
pens_CT wrote:I guess the question would be when you say Penguins all time roster are we talking the best players who played a portion of their career for the Psns, or are we talking the best players who spent most of their career here?

For example I would agree that Recchi & Tocchet are probably two of the top four RWs when you look at their total careers Pens + non-Pens seasons. I would put Pronovost & Kehoe above them based on what they did as Penguins.

Too bad Stackhouse played in the 70s, it would have been interesting to see what kind of offensive numbers he would have put up in today's league.

Overall I think you put together a pretty solid list.


Would you put Gonchar into that same criteria? If so who replaces him? Heck if you go down that path Coffey and Murphy could be lumped into the discussion, ya know?


Well Gonchar was here 5 years, and Murphy was here 4 1/2 years. I'd consider them "as Penguins" ahead of Tocchet who was here 2 years plus a fraction (the year he was required). Its arbitrary I'll grant you but I would put Pronovost or Kehoe ahead of Tocchet based on their stats wearing a Penguins uniform. Recchi I could go either way, most of his productive years in the prime of his career were either with Philadelphia or Montreal.
pens_CT
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,743
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:47 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby pens_CT on Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:47 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Give me Zubov over Letang every day and twice on Sunday.


Tell that to 66 who didn't want Zubov on the team, of course he didn't want Scotty Bowman as coach of the team either.
pens_CT
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,743
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:47 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby Daniel on Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:57 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Daniel wrote:
pens_CT wrote:I guess the question would be when you say Penguins all time roster are we talking the best players who played a portion of their career for the Psns, or are we talking the best players who spent most of their career here?

For example I would agree that Recchi & Tocchet are probably two of the top four RWs when you look at their total careers Pens + non-Pens seasons. I would put Pronovost & Kehoe above them based on what they did as Penguins.

Too bad Stackhouse played in the 70s, it would have been interesting to see what kind of offensive numbers he would have put up in today's league.

Overall I think you put together a pretty solid list.


Would you put Gonchar into that same criteria? If so who replaces him? Heck if you go down that path Coffey and Murphy could be lumped into the discussion, ya know?


Well Gonchar was here 5 years, and Murphy was here 4 1/2 years. I'd consider them "as Penguins" ahead of Tocchet who was here 2 years plus a fraction (the year he was required). Its arbitrary I'll grant you but I would put Pronovost or Kehoe ahead of Tocchet based on their stats wearing a Penguins uniform. Recchi I could go either way, most of his productive years in the prime of his career were either with Philadelphia or Montreal.


Oh for sure, these kinds of discussions are fun and like you said it's arbitrary. Reason I brought up Gonchar, Murphy, Coffey was that they're more well known for playing with other teams (Capitals, Red Wings, Oilers). I also think his list is pretty well perfect, other than 1 or 2 spots like you said. The only discussions would be either be arbitrary or worst roster group (though the entire 2002 or 2003 squads might qualify on it's own :D ).

Wasn't into hockey in the 70s and 80s but statistically I can see why you'd replace Recchi ad Tocchet with Pronovost and Kehoe.
Daniel
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,490
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: Dallas

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:08 pm

pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Give me Zubov over Letang every day and twice on Sunday.


Tell that to 66 who didn't want Zubov on the team, of course he didn't want Scotty Bowman as coach of the team either.


How we traded Zubov for Hatcher and then Hatcher for Peter Popovic I'll never understand........
thehockeyguru
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,518
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby pens_CT on Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:37 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Give me Zubov over Letang every day and twice on Sunday.


Tell that to 66 who didn't want Zubov on the team, of course he didn't want Scotty Bowman as coach of the team either.


How we traded Zubov for Hatcher and then Hatcher for Peter Popovic I'll never understand........


Not exactly the most stellar moves by Craig Patrick.
pens_CT
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,743
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:47 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby FLPensFan on Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:38 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Give me Zubov over Letang every day and twice on Sunday.


Tell that to 66 who didn't want Zubov on the team, of course he didn't want Scotty Bowman as coach of the team either.


How we traded Zubov for Hatcher and then Hatcher for Peter Popovic I'll never understand........

I need to try and find the article again, but, I could swear in the past 6 months there was an article from the Dallas point of view on the PIT to DAL trade, and Zubov shot down the whole "Lemieux made the Penguins trade him" thing.

EDIT1: First thing I found in a Josh Yohe mailbag supports that Lemieux didn't like him. Says Jagr reportedly also was not a fan. Sounds like Zubov might have been a bit of Jagr/Kessel-esque...a guy who beats to his own drum and some people find as odd.

EDIT2: Man, I can recall the article but just can't find it. I am almost certain when Patrick called Dallas and said they wanted Hatcher, the Dallas GM assumed Derian and told him know. And I could swear when he was told they wanted Kevin Hatcher (who they already wanted to deal), the Dallas GM couldn't get ahold of the owner to get the deal approved.

This below is from a 2001 Post-Gazette article, but this isn't the one I'm thinking of:

Zubov yesterday offered his own thoughts on the matter.

"I would say that's all B.S., all that stuff about Mario not wanting me. I never had a problem with Mario. To me, it was very simple. One team was looking for one thing, and the other was looking for something else. That's all. That's all there is about the way it happened."

Zubov refuted another widely held view that he asked for a trade because Pittsburgh didn't have enough of a Russian population to suit him and his family. He had been delighted with the number of Russians in New York, where he played for the Rangers in 1992-95. "I wasn't happy about the move, obviously, because that wasn't the place to go. The team pretty much sucked," he said, noting that Dallas finished 26-42-14 and last in its division the season before he was deal there. "Plus, it was pretty far from New York. Just look at it from that point of view. How far are we here from New York? And how far is Dallas from New York? No, I didn't want to go there at all. I think, when I first heard about it, I would have been happier anywhere else."

UPDATE3: Found it. It was posted on the Athletic, and apparently was an excerpt from a book

*********************
A short conversation at the draft table helped the Dallas Stars pull off one of the biggest trades in franchise history on June 22, 1996. According to multiple accounts, the conversation went something like this between Stars general manager Bob Gainey and Pittsburgh Penguins general manager Craig Patrick.

Patrick: Would you be interested in Sergei Zubov?

Gainey: Yes.

Patrick: We’d want Hatcher.

Gainey: Derian?

Patrick: No, Kevin.

Gainey hung up the phone and asked the rest of the Stars representatives at the draft table, “Is there any reason we wouldn’t trade Kevin Hatcher for Sergei Zubov?”
********************
Dallas wanted to get rid of Kevin Hatcher because he was apparently a bad influence on Derian. Guy Carboneau told the owner and team president the team would never be a winner with K. Hatcher on the team. It also mentions team owner Tom Hicks was with a client on the Black Sea for another business venture and couldn't be reached. Gainey and Lites made the deal without consulting him because they couldn't reach him, even though Hicks had a rule that he wanted to know first before an asset was traded.

The Zubov quotes came from that PG article above, and were reused in this book. The only other small piece was:

The bottom line? The Penguins thought getting a more stable defensive player in Hatcher was worth parting with Zubov. “I guess management decided to get a more defensive player. That’s the way it is,” Zubov told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram in 2001. “Maybe they did want me to shoot more. I always want to make a play, maybe even a fancy play. I think that’s the beauty of hockey.”

https://theathletic.com/576874/2018/10/08/book-excerpt-22-years-ago-the-dallas-stars-pulled-off-a-heist-for-sergei-zubov-heres-the-inside-story/
FLPensFan
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,930
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:30 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:14 pm

You can say what you want about plus - minus but Zubov was a career best +28 in his season with the Pens.

That trade was one of the worst in franchise history.
thehockeyguru
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,518
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby pens_CT on Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:17 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Give me Zubov over Letang every day and twice on Sunday.


Tell that to 66 who didn't want Zubov on the team, of course he didn't want Scotty Bowman as coach of the team either.


How we traded Zubov for Hatcher and then Hatcher for Peter Popovic I'll never understand........

I need to try and find the article again, but, I could swear in the past 6 months there was an article from the Dallas point of view on the PIT to DAL trade, and Zubov shot down the whole "Lemieux made the Penguins trade him" thing.

EDIT1: First thing I found in a Josh Yohe mailbag supports that Lemieux didn't like him. Says Jagr reportedly also was not a fan. Sounds like Zubov might have been a bit of Jagr/Kessel-esque...a guy who beats to his own drum and some people find as odd.

EDIT2: Man, I can recall the article but just can't find it. I am almost certain when Patrick called Dallas and said they wanted Hatcher, the Dallas GM assumed Derian and told him know. And I could swear when he was told they wanted Kevin Hatcher (who they already wanted to deal), the Dallas GM couldn't get ahold of the owner to get the deal approved.

This below is from a 2001 Post-Gazette article, but this isn't the one I'm thinking of:

Zubov yesterday offered his own thoughts on the matter.

"I would say that's all B.S., all that stuff about Mario not wanting me. I never had a problem with Mario. To me, it was very simple. One team was looking for one thing, and the other was looking for something else. That's all. That's all there is about the way it happened."

Zubov refuted another widely held view that he asked for a trade because Pittsburgh didn't have enough of a Russian population to suit him and his family. He had been delighted with the number of Russians in New York, where he played for the Rangers in 1992-95. "I wasn't happy about the move, obviously, because that wasn't the place to go. The team pretty much sucked," he said, noting that Dallas finished 26-42-14 and last in its division the season before he was deal there. "Plus, it was pretty far from New York. Just look at it from that point of view. How far are we here from New York? And how far is Dallas from New York? No, I didn't want to go there at all. I think, when I first heard about it, I would have been happier anywhere else."

UPDATE3: Found it. It was posted on the Athletic, and apparently was an excerpt from a book

*********************
A short conversation at the draft table helped the Dallas Stars pull off one of the biggest trades in franchise history on June 22, 1996. According to multiple accounts, the conversation went something like this between Stars general manager Bob Gainey and Pittsburgh Penguins general manager Craig Patrick.

Patrick: Would you be interested in Sergei Zubov?

Gainey: Yes.

Patrick: We’d want Hatcher.

Gainey: Derian?

Patrick: No, Kevin.

Gainey hung up the phone and asked the rest of the Stars representatives at the draft table, “Is there any reason we wouldn’t trade Kevin Hatcher for Sergei Zubov?”
********************
Dallas wanted to get rid of Kevin Hatcher because he was apparently a bad influence on Derian. Guy Carboneau told the owner and team president the team would never be a winner with K. Hatcher on the team. It also mentions team owner Tom Hicks was with a client on the Black Sea for another business venture and couldn't be reached. Gainey and Lites made the deal without consulting him because they couldn't reach him, even though Hicks had a rule that he wanted to know first before an asset was traded.

The Zubov quotes came from that PG article above, and were reused in this book. The only other small piece was:

The bottom line? The Penguins thought getting a more stable defensive player in Hatcher was worth parting with Zubov. “I guess management decided to get a more defensive player. That’s the way it is,” Zubov told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram in 2001. “Maybe they did want me to shoot more. I always want to make a play, maybe even a fancy play. I think that’s the beauty of hockey.”

https://theathletic.com/576874/2018/10/08/book-excerpt-22-years-ago-the-dallas-stars-pulled-off-a-heist-for-sergei-zubov-heres-the-inside-story/


Well if Patrick thought he was getting a better defensive player in Hatcher then he must have been drinking. All you have is Zubov’s opinion on why he was moved. I doubt Lemieux or Patrick will give their side of the story.
pens_CT
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,743
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:47 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby longtimefan on Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:29 am

pens_CT wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Give me Zubov over Letang every day and twice on Sunday.


Tell that to 66 who didn't want Zubov on the team, of course he didn't want Scotty Bowman as coach of the team either.


How we traded Zubov for Hatcher and then Hatcher for Peter Popovic I'll never understand........

I need to try and find the article again, but, I could swear in the past 6 months there was an article from the Dallas point of view on the PIT to DAL trade, and Zubov shot down the whole "Lemieux made the Penguins trade him" thing.

EDIT1: First thing I found in a Josh Yohe mailbag supports that Lemieux didn't like him. Says Jagr reportedly also was not a fan. Sounds like Zubov might have been a bit of Jagr/Kessel-esque...a guy who beats to his own drum and some people find as odd.

EDIT2: Man, I can recall the article but just can't find it. I am almost certain when Patrick called Dallas and said they wanted Hatcher, the Dallas GM assumed Derian and told him know. And I could swear when he was told they wanted Kevin Hatcher (who they already wanted to deal), the Dallas GM couldn't get ahold of the owner to get the deal approved.

This below is from a 2001 Post-Gazette article, but this isn't the one I'm thinking of:

Zubov yesterday offered his own thoughts on the matter.

"I would say that's all B.S., all that stuff about Mario not wanting me. I never had a problem with Mario. To me, it was very simple. One team was looking for one thing, and the other was looking for something else. That's all. That's all there is about the way it happened."

Zubov refuted another widely held view that he asked for a trade because Pittsburgh didn't have enough of a Russian population to suit him and his family. He had been delighted with the number of Russians in New York, where he played for the Rangers in 1992-95. "I wasn't happy about the move, obviously, because that wasn't the place to go. The team pretty much sucked," he said, noting that Dallas finished 26-42-14 and last in its division the season before he was deal there. "Plus, it was pretty far from New York. Just look at it from that point of view. How far are we here from New York? And how far is Dallas from New York? No, I didn't want to go there at all. I think, when I first heard about it, I would have been happier anywhere else."

UPDATE3: Found it. It was posted on the Athletic, and apparently was an excerpt from a book

*********************
A short conversation at the draft table helped the Dallas Stars pull off one of the biggest trades in franchise history on June 22, 1996. According to multiple accounts, the conversation went something like this between Stars general manager Bob Gainey and Pittsburgh Penguins general manager Craig Patrick.

Patrick: Would you be interested in Sergei Zubov?

Gainey: Yes.

Patrick: We’d want Hatcher.

Gainey: Derian?

Patrick: No, Kevin.

Gainey hung up the phone and asked the rest of the Stars representatives at the draft table, “Is there any reason we wouldn’t trade Kevin Hatcher for Sergei Zubov?”
********************
Dallas wanted to get rid of Kevin Hatcher because he was apparently a bad influence on Derian. Guy Carboneau told the owner and team president the team would never be a winner with K. Hatcher on the team. It also mentions team owner Tom Hicks was with a client on the Black Sea for another business venture and couldn't be reached. Gainey and Lites made the deal without consulting him because they couldn't reach him, even though Hicks had a rule that he wanted to know first before an asset was traded.

The Zubov quotes came from that PG article above, and were reused in this book. The only other small piece was:

The bottom line? The Penguins thought getting a more stable defensive player in Hatcher was worth parting with Zubov. “I guess management decided to get a more defensive player. That’s the way it is,” Zubov told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram in 2001. “Maybe they did want me to shoot more. I always want to make a play, maybe even a fancy play. I think that’s the beauty of hockey.”

https://theathletic.com/576874/2018/10/08/book-excerpt-22-years-ago-the-dallas-stars-pulled-off-a-heist-for-sergei-zubov-heres-the-inside-story/


Well if Patrick thought he was getting a better defensive player in Hatcher then he must have been drinking. All you have is Zubov’s opinion on why he was moved. I doubt Lemieux or Patrick will give their side of the story.


Zubov was a power play magician. But he needed the puck on his stick. The problem was, so did Mario. Zubov wanted to make plays, but the job was already taken. Shoooot! That's all you heard on the PP. In fairness to Hatcher, scoring 227 career goals in any era is impressive. His single season high was 34. Hatcher would shoot. It's what they were looking for. The age difference was critical. Hatcher is 3 1/2 years older than Zubov, and was 30. On the decline. Zubov was in his prime years. On the ascent. Zubov had another dozen NHL seasons left in him.
longtimefan
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,274
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby longtimefan on Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:00 am

Daniel wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
Daniel wrote:
pens_CT wrote:I guess the question would be when you say Penguins all time roster are we talking the best players who played a portion of their career for the Psns, or are we talking the best players who spent most of their career here?

For example I would agree that Recchi & Tocchet are probably two of the top four RWs when you look at their total careers Pens + non-Pens seasons. I would put Pronovost & Kehoe above them based on what they did as Penguins.

Too bad Stackhouse played in the 70s, it would have been interesting to see what kind of offensive numbers he would have put up in today's league.

Overall I think you put together a pretty solid list.


Would you put Gonchar into that same criteria? If so who replaces him? Heck if you go down that path Coffey and Murphy could be lumped into the discussion, ya know?


Well Gonchar was here 5 years, and Murphy was here 4 1/2 years. I'd consider them "as Penguins" ahead of Tocchet who was here 2 years plus a fraction (the year he was required). Its arbitrary I'll grant you but I would put Pronovost or Kehoe ahead of Tocchet based on their stats wearing a Penguins uniform. Recchi I could go either way, most of his productive years in the prime of his career were either with Philadelphia or Montreal.


Oh for sure, these kinds of discussions are fun and like you said it's arbitrary. Reason I brought up Gonchar, Murphy, Coffey was that they're more well known for playing with other teams (Capitals, Red Wings, Oilers). I also think his list is pretty well perfect, other than 1 or 2 spots like you said. The only discussions would be either be arbitrary or worst roster group (though the entire 2002 or 2003 squads might qualify on it's own :D ).

Wasn't into hockey in the 70s and 80s but statistically I can see why you'd replace Recchi ad Tocchet with Pronovost and Kehoe.


It's the toughest call on the roster. For longevity, it's hard to argue with Pronovost and Kehoe. Consistency as well. Both had 50 goal seasons. I guess the reason I chose Recchi and Tocchet is because of their importance in singular events. I will forever have the image of Recchi beating Andy Moog to give the Pens the lead late in game 6 of the '91 conference finals. It was the winning goal to send the Pens to the final. Mario's empty netter shortly afterward was the most euphoria I have ever felt at a game. It meant the Finals. For Tocchet, it was watching him return for the 3rd period and scoring 2 goals to beat the Blackhawks on a Sunday afternoon in Chicago. With a small face shield, and blood on his jersey from his broken jaw. To me, that's what he gave that team. He had a fierce desire to win his cup. In a very chippy era, he was an ideal winger. Mario was quoted as saying, "Give me Artie on the one side and Dickie on the other, and let's go win anther cup." Something to that extent. :D

Recchi did have a 100 point season with the Pens, and Tocchet did pop his single season high of 49 goals. In retrospect, Kehoe and Pronovost probably are deserving of the nod. I gave it to Recchi and Tocchet based on their contributions to the first two cups. But the pre-Mario crew doesn't get the respect it deserves.
longtimefan
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,274
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby longtimefan on Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:20 am

pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Give me Zubov over Letang every day and twice on Sunday.


Tell that to 66 who didn't want Zubov on the team, of course he didn't want Scotty Bowman as coach of the team either.


This was a really difficult situation with Bowman. His departure was mainly money motivated. Bowman was a coach from another era. He coached with terror and discipline. He was well known for his mind games. He had a reputation for being very difficult to play for. But he was a brilliant in game coach. He was the guy you hired when your team underachieves. He had total reign.

But the Pens were coming off a Cup win, their coach was fighting for his life, and Scottie took the interim tag. Following Badger made it difficult, since they had polar opposite techniques. Badger was the ultimate player's coach. He was disciplined, and highly respected. His death was untimely and tragic. But it also shines an even brighter light on that one season. He once said his philosophy was to point out something a player did well, then something he struggled with, and finishing the conversation on another positive note. The attitude of the team did a 180 during that one season. He was a beloved coach.

So Scottie came in on egg shells. It's hard to tell them you were now in charge when you were still considered the interim. And they weren't underachievers. They had just won the cup. Old habits die hard though. Recchi struggled a bit, and Bowman eventually switched him to center. He played Coffey at LW. It wasn't a smooth transition.

It's not fair to put it all on Scottie. The players were complicit. Much like Sid now, the players followed Mario's lead. And he never liked hard practices. It was a country club, and a certain arrogance had set in. I remember watching Barrasso interviewed and saying they didn't need a coach. They were accomplished enough. Looking back, they were accomplished. Three HOF centers. No matter how accomplished Bowman was, it would be hard to tell Trottier what it takes to win. I saw one of those review videos where Trottier was interviewed throughout the show. He was no fan of Bowman's, suggesting they had won the second cup in spite of Scottie.

Trottier took delight in telling a story about Lemieux, Francis, and himself getting together to formulate a strategy to beat the Caps. He claims Bowman wanted to stay the course, and the players told him it wouldn't work. Take it for what it's worth.

At any rate, Scottie was the greatest NHL coach of all time. But he was the Pens coach at the wrong time. He was banished from practice for part of his last season. The team also won 17 straight games. So he didn't get in the way. :D He took over a team who won a cup under a beloved coach. And he was doomed from the beginning when everything he did would be compared to Badger. He did mange to win a cup, and to set a winning streak record that has endured 28 years. He wanted back at practice, and a lot more money. The players didn't want a coach. So they got EJ. :P In fairness, EJ was a better coach than many give him credit for, but it was his first go around with no talent. His second tenure was to stand behind the bench and let Mario call the shots. Scottie's persona didn't fit that group. Nor did his departure lead to it's demise. Mario's health led to that. Scottie found greener pastures in Detroit, an underachieving group that seemed to need a kick in the ass. More his speed. :)
longtimefan
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,274
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby pens_CT on Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:34 am

longtimefan wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Give me Zubov over Letang every day and twice on Sunday.


Tell that to 66 who didn't want Zubov on the team, of course he didn't want Scotty Bowman as coach of the team either.


This was a really difficult situation with Bowman. His departure was mainly money motivated. Bowman was a coach from another era. He coached with terror and discipline. He was well known for his mind games. He had a reputation for being very difficult to play for. But he was a brilliant in game coach. He was the guy you hired when your team underachieves. He had total reign.

But the Pens were coming off a Cup win, their coach was fighting for his life, and Scottie took the interim tag. Following Badger made it difficult, since they had polar opposite techniques. Badger was the ultimate player's coach. He was disciplined, and highly respected. His death was untimely and tragic. But it also shines an even brighter light on that one season. He once said his philosophy was to point out something a player did well, then something he struggled with, and finishing the conversation on another positive note. The attitude of the team did a 180 during that one season. He was a beloved coach.

So Scottie came in on egg shells. It's hard to tell them you were now in charge when you were still considered the interim. And they weren't underachievers. They had just won the cup. Old habits die hard though. Recchi struggled a bit, and Bowman eventually switched him to center. He played Coffey at LW. It wasn't a smooth transition.

It's not fair to put it all on Scottie. The players were complicit. Much like Sid now, the players followed Mario's lead. And he never liked hard practices. It was a country club, and a certain arrogance had set in. I remember watching Barrasso interviewed and saying they didn't need a coach. They were accomplished enough. Looking back, they were accomplished. Three HOF centers. No matter how accomplished Bowman was, it would be hard to tell Trottier what it takes to win. I saw one of those review videos where Trottier was interviewed throughout the show. He was no fan of Bowman's, suggesting they had won the second cup in spite of Scottie.

Trottier took delight in telling a story about Lemieux, Francis, and himself getting together to formulate a strategy to beat the Caps. He claims Bowman wanted to stay the course, and the players told him it wouldn't work. Take it for what it's worth.

At any rate, Scottie was the greatest NHL coach of all time. But he was the Pens coach at the wrong time. He was banished from practice for part of his last season. The team also won 17 straight games. So he didn't get in the way. :D He took over a team who won a cup under a beloved coach. And he was doomed from the beginning when everything he did would be compared to Badger. He did mange to win a cup, and to set a winning streak record that has endured 28 years. He wanted back at practice, and a lot more money. The players didn't want a coach. So they got EJ. :P In fairness, EJ was a better coach than many give him credit for, but it was his first go around with no talent. His second tenure was to stand behind the bench and let Mario call the shots. Scottie's persona didn't fit that group. Nor did his departure lead to it's demise. Mario's health led to that. Scottie found greener pastures in Detroit, an underachieving group that seemed to need a kick in the ass. More his speed. :)


No doubt that Bowman was the polar opposite of Badger Bob in terms of his coaching style. Bowman coached six cup winners in Montreal (five in a row), and you didn't see a team revolt from Guy LaFluer or whoever you consider their best player (they had a few decent players on those teams :D ). In my opinion the country club atmosphere in the 90s cost the Penguins probably at least one cup. They became a team that believed they could win solely based on their skill, and didn't need to outwork the other team. Regardless of how much money Bowman wanted, he couldn't continue coaching under those circumstances. Patrick obviously sided with Lemieux and Bowman left. Just because it went down that way, doesn't make it the correct decision for the franchise, and the team got what it deserved no more cups in that era.
pens_CT
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,743
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:47 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby Cow_Master66 on Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 am

Maybe just personal preference but I would put Kovy in over Tocchet.
Cow_Master66
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 9:41 am

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby FallenHero96 on Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:50 pm

Only played for us one year but Luc Robitaille was pretty dang good and was one of my favorite players, and would be the #1 LW on that list if you are going by just players for the organization. Sad he never got to play with Mario.
FallenHero96
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,119
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:39 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby Steve Dave on Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:52 pm

Stevens Lemieux Tocchet
Guentzel Francis Jagr
Straka Malkin Kovalev
Kunitz Crosby Mullen
Steve Dave
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,848
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:09 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:36 am

Now, who here can give me a"real" all-time roster...one where guys are playing in their proper position, and on their proper line/pairing....not just taking all the top guys and distributing them through the lineup. Here's my attempt at this:

Stevens-Lemieux-Jagr
Kunitz-Crosby-Kehoe
Bourque-Staal-Errey
Loney-Talbot-Moran


Coffey-Letang
Carlyle-Murphy
Burrows-Stackhouse

Fleury
Wregget

I originally had Straka as the 2nd line LW, but, even though Straka has more GP and points as a Penguins (and he played a lot of LW after starting out a center), Kunitz is maybe 40 points less....but 3 Cups. Had to give the nod to Kunitz there. LW is a pretty weak position for the Penguins, at least in top 6 variety and a good amount of career games.

The bottom 6 forwards are a lot harder, because those guys get churned through much, much more. It's hard for me to pick a lot of guys from the 70's, being born in 1975 I didn't really start watching hockey until a few years before Lemieux came in the league. Can't just look at games played and stats to pick all of these guys. In the end, I went with Bourque and Errey. Errey played a lot further up in the lineup, but, he was never a true top 6 forward, and, the first 4 or so seasons, he was lower in the lineup. Staal was an easy choice for the 3C with his solid production in his tie here. I gave the nod to Loney, Talbot, and Ian Moran on the bottom lines, as those guys played lesser roles but managed a decent amount of games played for the team.

On defense, it's hard, unless you remember where some of these guys played. I'm pretty sure both Burrows and Stackhouse were more than bottom pairing guys. My other pairing that I might have used in their place would have been Jim Johnson-Rod Buskas.

In goal, Fleury with the unanimous starter nod over Barrasso, and Wregget definitely the easy pick for backup. Wregget played his entire time here "behind" Barrasso as the #2, but, Barrasso was injured so much that he was essentially a split starter or the #1 guy for 4 straight years.
FLPensFan
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,930
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:30 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby pens_CT on Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:17 am

FLPensFan wrote:Now, who here can give me a"real" all-time roster...one where guys are playing in their proper position, and on their proper line/pairing....not just taking all the top guys and distributing them through the lineup. Here's my attempt at this:

Stevens-Lemieux-Jagr
Kunitz-Crosby-Kehoe
Bourque-Staal-Errey
Loney-Talbot-Moran


Coffey-Letang
Carlyle-Murphy
Burrows-Stackhouse

Fleury
Wregget

I originally had Straka as the 2nd line LW, but, even though Straka has more GP and points as a Penguins (and he played a lot of LW after starting out a center), Kunitz is maybe 40 points less....but 3 Cups. Had to give the nod to Kunitz there. LW is a pretty weak position for the Penguins, at least in top 6 variety and a good amount of career games.

The bottom 6 forwards are a lot harder, because those guys get churned through much, much more. It's hard for me to pick a lot of guys from the 70's, being born in 1975 I didn't really start watching hockey until a few years before Lemieux came in the league. Can't just look at games played and stats to pick all of these guys. In the end, I went with Bourque and Errey. Errey played a lot further up in the lineup, but, he was never a true top 6 forward, and, the first 4 or so seasons, he was lower in the lineup. Staal was an easy choice for the 3C with his solid production in his tie here. I gave the nod to Loney, Talbot, and Ian Moran on the bottom lines, as those guys played lesser roles but managed a decent amount of games played for the team.

On defense, it's hard, unless you remember where some of these guys played. I'm pretty sure both Burrows and Stackhouse were more than bottom pairing guys. My other pairing that I might have used in their place would have been Jim Johnson-Rod Buskas.

In goal, Fleury with the unanimous starter nod over Barrasso, and Wregget definitely the easy pick for backup. Wregget played his entire time here "behind" Barrasso as the #2, but, Barrasso was injured so much that he was essentially a split starter or the #1 guy for 4 straight years.


I think you're violating your ground rules here if the claim that Crosby occupies the 2C spot on the current team, and therefore that slots him in as the 2C on the all-time roster. He's obvious the 2nd best center all time in penguins history. If you're looking for the best second line center in Penguins history the battle is between Malkin and Francis.
pens_CT
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,743
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:47 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby longtimefan on Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:04 am

FLPensFan wrote:Now, who here can give me a"real" all-time roster...one where guys are playing in their proper position, and on their proper line/pairing....not just taking all the top guys and distributing them through the lineup. Here's my attempt at this:

Stevens-Lemieux-Jagr
Kunitz-Crosby-Kehoe
Bourque-Staal-Errey
Loney-Talbot-Moran


Coffey-Letang
Carlyle-Murphy
Burrows-Stackhouse

Fleury
Wregget

I originally had Straka as the 2nd line LW, but, even though Straka has more GP and points as a Penguins (and he played a lot of LW after starting out a center), Kunitz is maybe 40 points less....but 3 Cups. Had to give the nod to Kunitz there. LW is a pretty weak position for the Penguins, at least in top 6 variety and a good amount of career games.

The bottom 6 forwards are a lot harder, because those guys get churned through much, much more. It's hard for me to pick a lot of guys from the 70's, being born in 1975 I didn't really start watching hockey until a few years before Lemieux came in the league. Can't just look at games played and stats to pick all of these guys. In the end, I went with Bourque and Errey. Errey played a lot further up in the lineup, but, he was never a true top 6 forward, and, the first 4 or so seasons, he was lower in the lineup. Staal was an easy choice for the 3C with his solid production in his tie here. I gave the nod to Loney, Talbot, and Ian Moran on the bottom lines, as those guys played lesser roles but managed a decent amount of games played for the team.

On defense, it's hard, unless you remember where some of these guys played. I'm pretty sure both Burrows and Stackhouse were more than bottom pairing guys. My other pairing that I might have used in their place would have been Jim Johnson-Rod Buskas.

In goal, Fleury with the unanimous starter nod over Barrasso, and Wregget definitely the easy pick for backup. Wregget played his entire time here "behind" Barrasso as the #2, but, Barrasso was injured so much that he was essentially a split starter or the #1 guy for 4 straight years.


I think you need to take your premise one step farther. Sid can't be a 2C, and I'm not comfortable with Errey as a 3LW. Here's my take with them in the spot where they made their mark.

Stevens Lemieux Jagr
Straka Malkin Kovalev
Kelly Staal Kessel
Loney Cullen Tanev

Coffey Murphy
Carlyle Letang
Roberts Eaton


Fleury
Wregget

Obviously, it's all argumentative. But a fun exercise. There's no arguing the top line. Malkin beats out Francis mainly on longevity. Kunitz played as a 1LW with Sid. Kovy and Straka were regulated to 2nd line designation because of Jagr's presence. Kehoe is a good choice, but spent a lot of time as a 1RW. Staal made the biggest impact as a 3C. But if you're looking for somebody who played 3RW, that's Kessel with HBK. Cullen made a strong impact as a 4C. Talbot's impact was up in the line up, and he didn't play in the middle a lot.

Some spots are tougher than others. Part of it is how important is longevity? As far as true 3LW, the two that stick out to me are Hagelin and J Bob "Battleship" Kelly. Which goes way back, and gets my vote here as a nod to my childhood. He was not brought in to score at the height of the Broad Street Bullies era. But he ended up with back to back 27 and 25 goal seasons after being placed on 18 yr old Pierre Larouche's LW. Battleship was among the toughest of the tough, and he helped contribute to Larouche's 31 goal rookie year. No one bothered Pierre. A very different time. So I went with the Battleship.

True 4th liners are real tough. Even on a very small sample size, I put Tanev there. He's labeled a 4th liner, but has had the benefit of 3rd line minutes because of injuries, and has proven his value. I cheated and went with Loney as well. Troy was much more of a 3LW, but teams generally didn't roll four lines. They were much more spot players, and Troy played a bit higher. He played with Trottier and Jagr the majority of the 1st Cup season. Maybe ZAR will lock this down if he sticks around and proves that his freakish defensive stats are legit. But true 4th liners are rough.

I just moved Murphy up as a nod to me believing he was a tad better than Letang. He took over the #1 spot when Coffey was moved, and he thrived. And later recreated himself as a defensive force in Detroit. Letang spent some times on a 2nd pairing while Gonchar was still playing. But it doesn't change the top 4. But the fun is trying to find true bottom pairing guys. I arrived at Gordie Roberts and Mark Eaton. Roberts was picked off the scrap heap, and played for both the '91 and '92 Cup teams. His only two seasons here. His only playoff goal was huge in the clincher against Boston to send them to the finals for the first time... Eaton played the least minutes on the '09 team, but was still over 18 minutes a game. He was just one of those guys who was there, but gave them good minutes.

Just a little different from the same conversation over and over until there is actual hockey to talk about. There's no right or wrong answers. My original thoughts in the initial post have evolved a bit. I'm now inclined to include Kovalev in my top 4. Good debate helps things evolve.
longtimefan
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,274
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:33 pm

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby Jim on Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:52 am

If Fleury came back and finished his career here as the backup, could he be listed as the starter and as the backup?
Jim
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,873
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: A take on the Pens all time roster

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:23 pm

pens_CT wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Now, who here can give me a"real" all-time roster...one where guys are playing in their proper position, and on their proper line/pairing....not just taking all the top guys and distributing them through the lineup. Here's my attempt at this:

Stevens-Lemieux-Jagr
Kunitz-Crosby-Kehoe
Bourque-Staal-Errey
Loney-Talbot-Moran


Coffey-Letang
Carlyle-Murphy
Burrows-Stackhouse

Fleury
Wregget

I originally had Straka as the 2nd line LW, but, even though Straka has more GP and points as a Penguins (and he played a lot of LW after starting out a center), Kunitz is maybe 40 points less....but 3 Cups. Had to give the nod to Kunitz there. LW is a pretty weak position for the Penguins, at least in top 6 variety and a good amount of career games.

The bottom 6 forwards are a lot harder, because those guys get churned through much, much more. It's hard for me to pick a lot of guys from the 70's, being born in 1975 I didn't really start watching hockey until a few years before Lemieux came in the league. Can't just look at games played and stats to pick all of these guys. In the end, I went with Bourque and Errey. Errey played a lot further up in the lineup, but, he was never a true top 6 forward, and, the first 4 or so seasons, he was lower in the lineup. Staal was an easy choice for the 3C with his solid production in his tie here. I gave the nod to Loney, Talbot, and Ian Moran on the bottom lines, as those guys played lesser roles but managed a decent amount of games played for the team.

On defense, it's hard, unless you remember where some of these guys played. I'm pretty sure both Burrows and Stackhouse were more than bottom pairing guys. My other pairing that I might have used in their place would have been Jim Johnson-Rod Buskas.

In goal, Fleury with the unanimous starter nod over Barrasso, and Wregget definitely the easy pick for backup. Wregget played his entire time here "behind" Barrasso as the #2, but, Barrasso was injured so much that he was essentially a split starter or the #1 guy for 4 straight years.


I think you're violating your ground rules here if the claim that Crosby occupies the 2C spot on the current team, and therefore that slots him in as the 2C on the all-time roster. He's obvious the 2nd best center all time in penguins history. If you're looking for the best second line center in Penguins history the battle is between Malkin and Francis.

Good catch, and based on your rules, you are correct. So I would likely put Malkin on the 2nd line as well. My main factors, at least for top 6, are games played, points, and importance to team success. Malkin has 3 Cups to Francis 2 with Pittsburgh, and Malkin has almost twice as many games played for Pittsburgh as Francis, 907 for Malkin, 533 for Francis.
FLPensFan
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,930
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:30 pm
Location: South Florida

Next

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: GSdrums87, Hatrick and 29 guests


e-mail