Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 15, 2020 10:06 am

Just reading about the Simon injury now. In Yohe's piece, he mentioned that the Penguins had strongly been considering the "Sid and the Kids" line reuniting.

Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary
Zucker-Malkin-Rust
Marleau-McCann-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Tanev

That would be my lineup. If Sheary doesn't cut it, I'd move McCann up to line one and insert Bjugstad as 3C.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri May 15, 2020 11:13 am

FLPensFan wrote:Just reading about the Simon injury now. In Yohe's piece, he mentioned that the Penguins had strongly been considering the "Sid and the Kids" line reuniting.

Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary
Zucker-Malkin-Rust
Marleau-McCann-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Tanev

That would be my lineup. If Sheary doesn't cut it, I'd move McCann up to line one and insert Bjugstad as 3C.


I like the look of that. To me Rodrigues and Bjugstad should be the odd men out. Injuries happen and the depth will help if they return.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby longtimefan on Fri May 15, 2020 2:45 pm

Jim wrote:Given your outline above, I would say a McCann, Bjugstad, Hornqvist 3rd.

Angello is just no. Rodrigues is not what that 3rd line needs. I prefer McCann at wing, knocking Sheary. That leaves Bjugstad and Lafferty. I like Lafferty but I gotta go with Bjugstad. Yes, he started poorly this year, but that could have been injury related. He has played 45 games as a Pen and has 10 goals. That is basically a 20 goal pace even with only 1 goal in 13 games this year. I think that a line of McCann, Bjugstad, Hornqvist (especially as the cobbled together line) could be rather difficult for opposition to play against.


I would agree. Bjugstad gives you a few things you don't have. Like size. Not to bang, but to use his strength down low. That's what he an Hornqvist did well last season.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby pens_CT on Fri May 15, 2020 3:24 pm

longtimefan wrote:
Jim wrote:Given your outline above, I would say a McCann, Bjugstad, Hornqvist 3rd.

Angello is just no. Rodrigues is not what that 3rd line needs. I prefer McCann at wing, knocking Sheary. That leaves Bjugstad and Lafferty. I like Lafferty but I gotta go with Bjugstad. Yes, he started poorly this year, but that could have been injury related. He has played 45 games as a Pen and has 10 goals. That is basically a 20 goal pace even with only 1 goal in 13 games this year. I think that a line of McCann, Bjugstad, Hornqvist (especially as the cobbled together line) could be rather difficult for opposition to play against.


I would agree. Bjugstad gives you a few things you don't have. Like size. Not to bang, but to use his strength down low. That's what he an Hornqvist did well last season.


Bjugstad and Hornqvist did play well together, trouble is that it didn't translate into goals. Scoring goals especially on the bottom six is kind of important if they want a long cup run.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 15, 2020 7:23 pm

Two hockey/roster related items today from DK's site:

--Sullivan pretty much told DK that, if play is to resume, Guentzel and Crosby will be together. Nothing in stone on which side Guentzel would play or who the other winger would be. Rust was ruled out, because Sullivan says Rust and Geno have developed a good chemistry and compliment each other well...so when play resumes, you can be pretty certain we will see 59-87 and 71-17 together.

--Murray has begun working with his own, new personal goalie coach named Adam Francilia. Francilia works with the Jets goalies, even into the minors, as well as a few others around the league. He also works with a few skaters including Justin Schultz. This info came from Freidman's 31 thoughts. Apparently this guy specializes in biomechanics, and stated they have found some structural deficiencies affecting his stance, and a few other hiccups. Francilia said "fans will notice a difference" in Murray's game when play resumes. He also apparently said he thinks Murray and Hellebyuck have a lot of similarities, the main one being they are both "thinkers."
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby Jim on Fri May 15, 2020 7:59 pm

Everyone mocked me when I said that replacing Bales with Buckley was a big mistake.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 15, 2020 11:14 pm

Jim wrote:Everyone mocked me when I said that replacing Bales with Buckley was a big mistake.

From everything I had read, Bales was "Fleury's guy" and Buckley was Murray and Jarry's guy. He was both Murray and Jarry's goalie coach in WBS. Once Fleury left, I believe Murray lobbied for Buckley to be the guy.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby longtimefan on Sat May 16, 2020 9:16 am

pens_CT wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
Jim wrote:Given your outline above, I would say a McCann, Bjugstad, Hornqvist 3rd.

Angello is just no. Rodrigues is not what that 3rd line needs. I prefer McCann at wing, knocking Sheary. That leaves Bjugstad and Lafferty. I like Lafferty but I gotta go with Bjugstad. Yes, he started poorly this year, but that could have been injury related. He has played 45 games as a Pen and has 10 goals. That is basically a 20 goal pace even with only 1 goal in 13 games this year. I think that a line of McCann, Bjugstad, Hornqvist (especially as the cobbled together line) could be rather difficult for opposition to play against.


I would agree. Bjugstad gives you a few things you don't have. Like size. Not to bang, but to use his strength down low. That's what he an Hornqvist did well last season.


Bjugstad and Hornqvist did play well together, trouble is that it didn't translate into goals. Scoring goals especially on the bottom six is kind of important if they want a long cup run.


They didn't score much, but I suspect your advanced stats gurus would describe that as an anomaly. If they control play and scoring chances, eventually they're going to go in. Especially with guys with a track record of finishing, which Hornqvist and Bjugstad both have. It was one of those, "eventually, they're going to go in." It was also over a year ago, and lines are fickle. see HBK. But it's a good framework for cobbled together 3rd line.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby Jim on Sat May 16, 2020 10:50 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:Everyone mocked me when I said that replacing Bales with Buckley was a big mistake.

From everything I had read, Bales was "Fleury's guy" and Buckley was Murray and Jarry's guy. He was both Murray and Jarry's goalie coach in WBS. Once Fleury left, I believe Murray lobbied for Buckley to be the guy.


That's how I understood it too. And as we all know, Murray is really good with career based decisions. It was a bad decision on day 1, and nothing has changed.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby DelPen on Sun May 17, 2020 10:39 pm

Zucker has been great with Sid and Guentzel with Geno and Rust was the best like in the NHL before the injury. Not sure why the smartest man in the room wants to mess with that but OK.

4th line is set if ZAR, Blueger and Tanev are all healthy. Marleau and Horny are great third line wings in this time, just depends who the center is, McCann if the 4th line is healthy otherwise he can slot down anywhere on that line to round it out and Bjugstad comes in to the third line.

Next year, we really need some compliance buyouts, no way we see the kids from the CHL especially with their season getting cut short, they need more time to develop and they will be more expensive than scrap heap 13th forwards. I would buy out Johnson just to get rid of that contact and let Schultz walk and also move Bjugstad for anything but a bad deal with term but would take a similar one year left deal for a righty who can compliment Riikola.

We aren’t in too bad a shape and don’t have many holes to fill and there’s opportunity to set up the future by moving Murray. He will cost more short term and he would bring more back in a trade and we are at the point now if you spend too much on him we won’t have the defense to protect him or anyone else, Jarry won’t cost nearly as much on a bridge deal, DeSmith is a competent backup but there are also a dozen guys floating around who can fill that roll but the month saved needs to bring in a defensemen that is actually good at defense and preferably a righty.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby FLPensFan on Mon May 18, 2020 12:50 am

DelPen wrote:Zucker has been great with Sid and Guentzel with Geno and Rust was the best like in the NHL before the injury. Not sure why the smartest man in the room wants to mess with that but OK.

4th line is set if ZAR, Blueger and Tanev are all healthy. Marleau and Horny are great third line wings in this time, just depends who the center is, McCann if the 4th line is healthy otherwise he can slot down anywhere on that line to round it out and Bjugstad comes in to the third line.

Next year, we really need some compliance buyouts, no way we see the kids from the CHL especially with their season getting cut short, they need more time to develop and they will be more expensive than scrap heap 13th forwards. I would buy out Johnson just to get rid of that contact and let Schultz walk and also move Bjugstad for anything but a bad deal with term but would take a similar one year left deal for a righty who can compliment Riikola.

We aren’t in too bad a shape and don’t have many holes to fill and there’s opportunity to set up the future by moving Murray. He will cost more short term and he would bring more back in a trade and we are at the point now if you spend too much on him we won’t have the defense to protect him or anyone else, Jarry won’t cost nearly as much on a bridge deal, DeSmith is a competent backup but there are also a dozen guys floating around who can fill that roll but the month saved needs to bring in a defensemen that is actually good at defense and preferably a righty.

I don't have a problem with lines 1 and 2 if it is Jake-Sid-X, Zucker-Malkin-Rust. Jake works well with both Sid and Geno, but, I think longer term, Jake has done better with Crosby (because he has had more opportunity there). Rust has worked well anywhere this season, but, I would agree that with Sullivan that he seems to have bonded more with Geno. I think both player work either line, but, I feel Jake and Sid work a bit better together, and so do Rust and Malkin...despite what any numbers may say.

4th line is set if everyone is healthy. I have zero faith in Bjugstad. To me, unless there's an injury, his ship has sailed. I'd be putting McCann at 3C. You may lose a bit of offensive output, but, that may actually be a good thing longer term in keeping his cost lower.

If there are compliance buyouts, or even if there are none and only normal buyouts, I'd buyout Bjugstad before I'd buyout Johnson at this point. With a smaller cap available to teams, I think it will be damn near impossible to move Bjugstad now that he has turned into the 2nd coming of Beau Bennett. This isn't new for him. Since 2015, he's missed 120 games. He averages missing 20 games a season. He's had 1 healthy year in the past 5 seasons. In a reduced cap world, I'm not touching him unless you are giving me something good to take him, versus getting any type of value back for him.

I also disagree on Poulin. While its not a guarantee, Rutherford sounds pretty convinced that he is ready to push for an NHL job. They liked what they saw last year and it sounded like there was some conversation about keeping him in the NHL last year. Poulin making the team and being able to fill a 3rd line role (or even 1st line role) for under 1M would be a huge help to the cap. Legare, from what I have heard, had a down season. He was playing on one of the worst teams in the Q, but, I have heard that he didn't really progress forward in his all-around game, and might have even taken a slight step back.

I do agree that Murray has to be the goalie to go. It's strictly a money decision for me at this point, coupled with the fact that he would garner more in return. If the Penguins could turn Murray into a high pick and a solid young defenseman (preferably RH) on an ELC deal, I would be happy. You put that d-man as the 3rd pairing RD. You live with Johnson another year, and/or, shop for a new 3rd pair LD...those are much easier to find than RD, plus you have POJ maybe a year away.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby longtimefan on Mon May 18, 2020 8:57 am

FLPensFan wrote:
DelPen wrote:Zucker has been great with Sid and Guentzel with Geno and Rust was the best like in the NHL before the injury. Not sure why the smartest man in the room wants to mess with that but OK.

4th line is set if ZAR, Blueger and Tanev are all healthy. Marleau and Horny are great third line wings in this time, just depends who the center is, McCann if the 4th line is healthy otherwise he can slot down anywhere on that line to round it out and Bjugstad comes in to the third line.

Next year, we really need some compliance buyouts, no way we see the kids from the CHL especially with their season getting cut short, they need more time to develop and they will be more expensive than scrap heap 13th forwards. I would buy out Johnson just to get rid of that contact and let Schultz walk and also move Bjugstad for anything but a bad deal with term but would take a similar one year left deal for a righty who can compliment Riikola.

We aren’t in too bad a shape and don’t have many holes to fill and there’s opportunity to set up the future by moving Murray. He will cost more short term and he would bring more back in a trade and we are at the point now if you spend too much on him we won’t have the defense to protect him or anyone else, Jarry won’t cost nearly as much on a bridge deal, DeSmith is a competent backup but there are also a dozen guys floating around who can fill that roll but the month saved needs to bring in a defensemen that is actually good at defense and preferably a righty.


I don't have a problem with lines 1 and 2 if it is Jake-Sid-X, Zucker-Malkin-Rust. Jake works well with both Sid and Geno, but, I think longer term, Jake has done better with Crosby (because he has had more opportunity there). Rust has worked well anywhere this season, but, I would agree that with Sullivan that he seems to have bonded more with Geno. I think both player work either line, but, I feel Jake and Sid work a bit better together, and so do Rust and Malkin...despite what any numbers may say.


One of the issues is that Zucker has played a total just over 9 minutes with Geno, and over 188 with Sid. There's no track record with Geno at all. I'm intrigued by Molinari's implication that Jake would move to the right side. Which he did last season, without missing a beat. He played there when McCann jumped to the 1st line. As far as Rust and Geno, Molinari quoted Sully as saying that Marleau was a possibility, but there were others as well. If that's the model, the 3rd line becomes McCann-Bjugstad-Hornqvist. That's the nice thing about having a round robin before the playoffs start. They can sort some of these things out. But automatically putting Zucker with Geno doesn't make a lot of sense considering they never really tried it.


4th line is set if everyone is healthy. I have zero faith in Bjugstad. To me, unless there's an injury, his ship has sailed. I'd be putting McCann at 3C. You may lose a bit of offensive output, but, that may actually be a good thing longer term in keeping his cost lower.


If you're talking about the playoffs, I think Bjugstad is the preferred 3C with McCann on the left side. The ship may have sailed, but this is a short term tournament. I can't see Nick being back next season under any circumstance, but he gives you the best chance this season. It shouldn't be forgotten that McCann was in a terrible slump, with 1 goal in his final 22 games. Still, I like him overall, and believe he'll be the 3C next season. Playing Nick at 3C gives you the option of flip flopping McCann with Marleau. although I think Marleau's age is much less a factor after a 3 month layoff. I'm not sold on Nick. But, with the model where Jake goes to the right side, it leaves you with Sheary or Rodrigues as the 3LW. I'd see what Nick can give you before I do that. Again gives value to the round robin to round things into shape.

If there are compliance buyouts, or even if there are none and only normal buyouts, I'd buyout Bjugstad before I'd buyout Johnson at this point. With a smaller cap available to teams, I think it will be damn near impossible to move Bjugstad now that he has turned into the 2nd coming of Beau Bennett. This isn't new for him. Since 2015, he's missed 120 games. He averages missing 20 games a season. He's had 1 healthy year in the past 5 seasons. In a reduced cap world, I'm not touching him unless you are giving me something good to take him, versus getting any type of value back for him.


I have real doubts there will be compliance buyouts. I do believe they'll agree to keep the cap flat. I don't see a decrease. It's not good for either side. There's also precedence, as it's how they handled the last lockout. Without a season's worth of data, they agreed to keep the cap the same as the season before. I do agree I'd buy out Nick before JJ, but I suspect he has more value than you expect. Yes, injuries are a concern, but we see players like that signed every season. It didn't stop Dallas from signing Handzus to a big contract a couple of seasons ago. It didn't work out, but Nick has pedigree. He'll be on an expiring contract. Somebody will take a chance, even if it's only for a late round pick. Take Anaheim, where JR goes to dump contracts. They are in a rebuild, and Nick could surprise and end up with a new deal. If not, they let him walk. Seems like a fair bet for a 5th-7th round pick. They aren't going to buyout JJ. They don't have a replacement waiting. Plus, they like what he brings. I suspect JJ is probably safe for another season, unless he's part of a deal and they feel comfortable with a replacement. They obviously don't see Riikola as that replacement, and Joseph doesn't seem to be ready.

I also disagree on Poulin. While its not a guarantee, Rutherford sounds pretty convinced that he is ready to push for an NHL job. They liked what they saw last year and it sounded like there was some conversation about keeping him in the NHL last year. Poulin making the team and being able to fill a 3rd line role (or even 1st line role) for under 1M would be a huge help to the cap. Legare, from what I have heard, had a down season. He was playing on one of the worst teams in the Q, but, I have heard that he didn't really progress forward in his all-around game, and might have even taken a slight step back.


This is typical of JR. He's never opposed to burning contract years if he thinks someone is ready. He did it with Sprong, which didn't work out so well. He considered it with Kapanen, and apparently gave it some thought last season. But, at the end of the day, Sully is going to have a lot to say. In what promises to be a shortened season with playoff berths not a given, I think they ultimately send him back to juniors. I just don't see Sully putting him in high leverage positions. He's still a 19 year old rookie. The window is rapidly closing, and I expect they will be hesitant to allow Poulin to take on a major role. The signing of O'Connor makes it less likely they'd keep him, since he plays the same position. The trump card is being able to let his contract slide for another season. It doesn't make sense to burn a season if he's not going to play a prominent role. He has a chance, but he'd have to force his way onto the roster during camp. Like Sprong did, or Marino last season.

I also believe that there's a better than 50/50 chance they bring Marleau back. The round robin and playoffs would give them a better opportunity to see how he fits. But he's not going to retire. Not 46 games away from Howe's GP record. He took the minimum to play last season, so I don't see it being a problem financially. It's possible his contract would be more team friendly than Poulin's. Plus, the Pens seem to like having a long in the tooth veteran around. Guerin, Cullen, even going back to Trottier. People will complain about holding the kids back, but Marleau offers a lot of value beyond his on ice play.

I do agree that Murray has to be the goalie to go. It's strictly a money decision for me at this point, coupled with the fact that he would garner more in return. If the Penguins could turn Murray into a high pick and a solid young defenseman (preferably RH) on an ELC deal, I would be happy. You put that d-man as the 3rd pairing RD. You live with Johnson another year, and/or, shop for a new 3rd pair LD...those are much easier to find than RD, plus you have POJ maybe a year away.


I think this has made the most sense for quite a while. I think you may be overestimating his return. But maybe not. It just depends on who you can strike a deal with. The problem with goaltenders is there's always a limited market. And he's not locked in. The new team is going to have to work out a deal. His season was less than glorious, and there are other guys who will be available. Including Holtby. Murray certainly has the advantage because he'll only be 26, but Holtby won't cost assets. To maximize Murray's value, they have to find a trade partner who is completely sold on him. Regardless, he's the one they'll move. Which I'm okay with. I like both guys, but believe Jarry is the more talented guy, and I think his ability to play the puck is invaluable to the defense.

Finding a RD is going to be their biggest challenge. There just aren't a ton of them. Especially worthwhile ones. They'll have a little room if the cap stays the same, but not a ton. I agree, a young guy on an ELC is ideal. But who? As far as UFA's, Trevor Van Riemsdyk might fit. A little longer shot might be Chris Tanev. Pickings are slim, and it will be a challenge. Regardless, I think they move on from Schultz.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon May 18, 2020 4:55 pm

Pittsburgh Hockey Now had an interesting article where the GM - HC at WBS said POJ was NHL ready.

Let's say for the sake of argument that there is an injury next season and POJ gets the call up, what happens if he outplays a JJ or Petterssen, what will Sullivan do? Both of those players are Sully guys.

The simple answer is JJ is the odd man out, you save some salary but moving him out before the 21-22 season
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby Jim on Mon May 18, 2020 6:25 pm

Petterssen just signed a stupid high contract. I would hope that someone would not be able to come in and outplay him.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon May 18, 2020 9:20 pm

Jim wrote:Petterssen just signed a stupid high contract. I would hope that someone would not be able to come in and outplay him.


Our management thought the same about JJ
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby FLPensFan on Mon May 18, 2020 11:39 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Pittsburgh Hockey Now had an interesting article where the GM - HC at WBS said POJ was NHL ready.

Let's say for the sake of argument that there is an injury next season and POJ gets the call up, what happens if he outplays a JJ or Petterssen, what will Sullivan do? Both of those players are Sully guys.

The simple answer is JJ is the odd man out, you save some salary but moving him out before the 21-22 season

POJ's play may be NHL ready, but his body is not. He's 6'2" and only 160lbs. This was one of his weaknesses with Arizona...he was a beanpole and had problems putting on good weight. POJ reportedly put on 10-15lbs last summer after the Penguins acquired him...but he lost ALL of that progress when he got mono early last season.

After he came back from mono, he struggled a bit, but then he started to come on, to the point where he was pretty much the top guy on every unit in WBS. POJ should be 1st or 2nd callup from WBS if he can put back on the pounds again this summer, but, I would say his body is still another year away from a full NHL season.

Pettersson, by the way, is 6'3" and only about 175lbs. He could stand to put on some weight too, as he does get pushed around a bit. At the start of the 21-22 season, Jack Johnson would be 34 years old and have 2 years left on his deal. If his play hasn't dropped off (and, how much can his play really drop off), trade him, buy him out, or worst case, keep him as an experienced 7th defenseman. I think Johnson would be ok with spot duty, but again, that's almost 2 years down the road.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby Jim on Tue May 19, 2020 9:45 am

Malkin was like that for most of his career. He is putting on old-man fat now and is up to 1920. But he was 6'3 175ish for most of his career.
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Re: Pens 2020 - 2021 Season Roster

Postby longtimefan on Tue May 19, 2020 9:50 am

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Pittsburgh Hockey Now had an interesting article where the GM - HC at WBS said POJ was NHL ready.

Let's say for the sake of argument that there is an injury next season and POJ gets the call up, what happens if he outplays a JJ or Petterssen, what will Sullivan do? Both of those players are Sully guys.

The simple answer is JJ is the odd man out, you save some salary but moving him out before the 21-22 season

POJ's play may be NHL ready, but his body is not. He's 6'2" and only 160lbs. This was one of his weaknesses with Arizona...he was a beanpole and had problems putting on good weight. POJ reportedly put on 10-15lbs last summer after the Penguins acquired him...but he lost ALL of that progress when he got mono early last season.

After he came back from mono, he struggled a bit, but then he started to come on, to the point where he was pretty much the top guy on every unit in WBS. POJ should be 1st or 2nd callup from WBS if he can put back on the pounds again this summer, but, I would say his body is still another year away from a full NHL season.

Pettersson, by the way, is 6'3" and only about 175lbs. He could stand to put on some weight too, as he does get pushed around a bit. At the start of the 21-22 season, Jack Johnson would be 34 years old and have 2 years left on his deal. If his play hasn't dropped off (and, how much can his play really drop off), trade him, buy him out, or worst case, keep him as an experienced 7th defenseman. I think Johnson would be ok with spot duty, but again, that's almost 2 years down the road.


Vellucci's comments are in line with what you're saying. He said that before the season was cancelled, POJ had become their #1 option is all situations. He also said he could have handled spot duty in case of emergency this season, and that he may be ready for a call up at some point next season. He did note that the mono set him back. The plus side is that, although he lost all the weight, he was able to put it on in the first place. Which suggests he should be able to bulk up enough to eventually play in the league. He's not a banger, and never will be. But he's apparently a great skater. Vellucci did say that, for whatever reason, he was held back by his coaching in juniors. They discouraged him from joining the rush. They worked with him on that aspect, as they see him as having a pretty high ceiling offensively. Under ideal circumstances, they hope he'll be a regular by 2021-22. JJ's contract will only have two years remaining at that point. I don't see that as being too difficult to get out of. Or, as you suggest, maybe he only sees spot duty. His cap hit was never horrible. It's always been the term.
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