COVID-19 and the Penguins

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:58 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
steelershark wrote:If the system is broken, what would a 3rd party president be able to do? there will still be Dems and Reps in both of the Congress.Trump is a 3rd party candidate, yet you do not like what? We are in less combat around the global, your taxes have been cut, jobs were plentiful, almost zero in real numbers. Stock market roaring, China on the defensive, no nukes from North Korea, Middle East calmer than in any time in this century. He has done this all fight the Russian hoax,(failed) the Ukrainian phone call and impeachment(failed) this stupid China virus(fail) and now this uprising. Pull your tampons out and change you little girls. He is battling for you *******.


The creation of a legitimate 3rd party would obviously need to extend beyond just a Presidential candidate, there would need to be candidates for Congress, and at the state level as well.


Problem is no one will vote for a 3rd party, look at the Libertarians. From what the early 70s and still can't get on a Presidential debate. I've had people tell me it's a waste of vote to not for vote a republican or democrat when I feel it's a waste to vote for someone I don't want in office. Looks like requirement is 15% of the polls so it's up to American't to choose Libertarian in polls/elections.

Maybe people don't like them, but I see a hardship for any 3rd party since people are addicted to red vs blue.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:59 pm

theblackarts wrote:
steelershark wrote:
theblackarts wrote:
steelershark wrote:So you like to play word games, wow I'm impressed! Show me where i am wrong. Damn another tampon in the mouth.


I didn't realize I had mentioned that, but maybe you can read my mind! You are quite a formidable opponent. Before we begin, do you prefer Parlimentary rules or Lincoln-Douglas rules?

If you want to acknowledge that Trump has done as best he could ,under his circumstance, I'm cool.


That's no way to start a debate! Cicero once said something to the effect of "The man who can hold forth on every matter under debate in two contradictory ways of pleading, or can argue for and against every proposition that can be laid down – such a man is the true, the complete, and the only orator!" Now, if I am to debate you, I have spent some considerable time trying to understand the conservative point of view. I would like some assurance that you have studied, in good faith, the liberal point of view, so that our debate can be fruitful and fair, and maybe we'll both learn something by the end. What say you?


I've studied both and the liberal point of view is hooey while the conservative point of view is groovy. :fist:
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Dr Rosenrosen on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:04 pm

I'm not buying the idea there isn't a moderate candidate in the race. Many would argue the Dem candidate is more conservative and they would have a point. There's a reason Bernie's supporters reject him. I'm a raging centrist and former registered Republican who would rather vote for someone else, but its a clear choice.

I just saw a video of a black man kneeling with others (including whites) in front a group of cops and giving an incredibly powerful and moving speech about love and healing (from his knees). After a few minutes, one of the officers broke ranks to grab the man and pull him into the group of cops to arrest him. This was hours after the president's and AG's directive to "dominate." That's pure Fascism and it has no place in America. I'm f'ing raging right now.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:54 pm

Daniel wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
steelershark wrote:If the system is broken, what would a 3rd party president be able to do? there will still be Dems and Reps in both of the Congress.Trump is a 3rd party candidate, yet you do not like what? We are in less combat around the global, your taxes have been cut, jobs were plentiful, almost zero in real numbers. Stock market roaring, China on the defensive, no nukes from North Korea, Middle East calmer than in any time in this century. He has done this all fight the Russian hoax,(failed) the Ukrainian phone call and impeachment(failed) this stupid China virus(fail) and now this uprising. Pull your tampons out and change you little girls. He is battling for you *******.


The creation of a legitimate 3rd party would obviously need to extend beyond just a Presidential candidate, there would need to be candidates for Congress, and at the state level as well.


Problem is no one will vote for a 3rd party, look at the Libertarians. From what the early 70s and still can't get on a Presidential debate. I've had people tell me it's a waste of vote to not for vote a republican or democrat when I feel it's a waste to vote for someone I don't want in office. Looks like requirement is 15% of the polls so it's up to American't to choose Libertarian in polls/elections.

Maybe people don't like them, but I see a hardship for any 3rd party since people are addicted to red vs blue.


I'm not going to disagree with you, there are tremendous obstacles to establishing a 3rd party when the two existing parties are so entrenched. You have fake news propaganda on both sides.

It starts though with the people using their votes. I voted 3rd party last election and will do so down the ballot in 2020.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:59 pm

Dr Rosenrosen wrote:I'm not buying the idea there isn't a moderate candidate in the race. Many would argue the Dem candidate is more conservative and they would have a point. There's a reason Bernie's supporters reject him. I'm a raging centrist and former registered Republican who would rather vote for someone else, but its a clear choice.

I just saw a video of a black man kneeling with others (including whites) in front a group of cops and giving an incredibly powerful and moving speech about love and healing (from his knees). After a few minutes, one of the officers broke ranks to grab the man and pull him into the group of cops to arrest him. This was hours after the president's and AG's directive to "dominate." That's pure Fascism and it has no place in America. I'm f'ing raging right now.


I also saw Obama in office for 8 years with Holder and Lynch as AG for those 8 years. I had high hopes that race relations would improve but they unfortunatrly didnt.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby pens_CT on Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:45 pm

Dr Rosenrosen wrote:I'm not buying the idea there isn't a moderate candidate in the race. Many would argue the Dem candidate is more conservative and they would have a point. There's a reason Bernie's supporters reject him. I'm a raging centrist and former registered Republican who would rather vote for someone else, but its a clear choice.

I just saw a video of a black man kneeling with others (including whites) in front a group of cops and giving an incredibly powerful and moving speech about love and healing (from his knees). After a few minutes, one of the officers broke ranks to grab the man and pull him into the group of cops to arrest him. This was hours after the president's and AG's directive to "dominate." That's pure Fascism and it has no place in America. I'm f'ing raging right now.


Then the ass clown in the White House uses the military to tear gas a peaceful protest near the White House so he can walk over to a church to have a photo op while holding up a bible. You can't make this crap up.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:50 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Dr Rosenrosen wrote:I'm not buying the idea there isn't a moderate candidate in the race. Many would argue the Dem candidate is more conservative and they would have a point. There's a reason Bernie's supporters reject him. I'm a raging centrist and former registered Republican who would rather vote for someone else, but its a clear choice.

I just saw a video of a black man kneeling with others (including whites) in front a group of cops and giving an incredibly powerful and moving speech about love and healing (from his knees). After a few minutes, one of the officers broke ranks to grab the man and pull him into the group of cops to arrest him. This was hours after the president's and AG's directive to "dominate." That's pure Fascism and it has no place in America. I'm f'ing raging right now.


Then the ass clown in the White House uses the military to tear gas a peaceful protest near the White House so he can walk over to a church to have a photo op while holding up a bible. You can't make this crap up.


In all fairness there was a curfew in place for 7PM and he headed over there after 7PM.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby pens_CT on Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:05 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
Dr Rosenrosen wrote:I'm not buying the idea there isn't a moderate candidate in the race. Many would argue the Dem candidate is more conservative and they would have a point. There's a reason Bernie's supporters reject him. I'm a raging centrist and former registered Republican who would rather vote for someone else, but its a clear choice.

I just saw a video of a black man kneeling with others (including whites) in front a group of cops and giving an incredibly powerful and moving speech about love and healing (from his knees). After a few minutes, one of the officers broke ranks to grab the man and pull him into the group of cops to arrest him. This was hours after the president's and AG's directive to "dominate." That's pure Fascism and it has no place in America. I'm f'ing raging right now.


Then the ass clown in the White House uses the military to tear gas a peaceful protest near the White House so he can walk over to a church to have a photo op while holding up a bible. You can't make this crap up.


In all fairness there was a curfew in place for 7PM and he headed over there after 7PM.


How convenient. I'm not buying that explanation. A typical three world country move.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:20 pm

pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
Dr Rosenrosen wrote:I'm not buying the idea there isn't a moderate candidate in the race. Many would argue the Dem candidate is more conservative and they would have a point. There's a reason Bernie's supporters reject him. I'm a raging centrist and former registered Republican who would rather vote for someone else, but its a clear choice.

I just saw a video of a black man kneeling with others (including whites) in front a group of cops and giving an incredibly powerful and moving speech about love and healing (from his knees). After a few minutes, one of the officers broke ranks to grab the man and pull him into the group of cops to arrest him. This was hours after the president's and AG's directive to "dominate." That's pure Fascism and it has no place in America. I'm f'ing raging right now.


Then the ass clown in the White House uses the military to tear gas a peaceful protest near the White House so he can walk over to a church to have a photo op while holding up a bible. You can't make this crap up.


In all fairness there was a curfew in place for 7PM and he headed over there after 7PM.


How convenient. I'm not buying that explanation. A typical three world country move.


I just dont get it man, its exhausting trying to point out facts when people are so blinded by partisan politics on both sides.

I'm done.....
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Cow_Master66 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:31 pm

What % of voters could intelligently describe what Libertarian means? 15%? Dumb people just pull the lever. A Libertarian candidate will never win because they give too much money and power back to the people. And by power I mean their God given rights...
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:38 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:What % of voters could intelligently describe what Libertarian means? 15%? Dumb people just pull the lever. A Libertarian candidate will never win because they give too much money and power back to the people. And by power I mean their God given rights...


What % of voters could intelligently describe what Democrat or Republican means? I think we've gotten to the point of red vs blue and each side is evil to the other. Neither side is for the American people, it's just a question of whether you like collectivism or individualism but overall neither side truly stands for those philosophies. It's just about power, getting more power, getting rich to get more power, and a whole lot of bread and circuses for the masses.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby SubtropicalPenguin on Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:25 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
Dr Rosenrosen wrote:I'm not buying the idea there isn't a moderate candidate in the race. Many would argue the Dem candidate is more conservative and they would have a point. There's a reason Bernie's supporters reject him. I'm a raging centrist and former registered Republican who would rather vote for someone else, but its a clear choice.

I just saw a video of a black man kneeling with others (including whites) in front a group of cops and giving an incredibly powerful and moving speech about love and healing (from his knees). After a few minutes, one of the officers broke ranks to grab the man and pull him into the group of cops to arrest him. This was hours after the president's and AG's directive to "dominate." That's pure Fascism and it has no place in America. I'm f'ing raging right now.


Then the ass clown in the White House uses the military to tear gas a peaceful protest near the White House so he can walk over to a church to have a photo op while holding up a bible. You can't make this crap up.


In all fairness there was a curfew in place for 7PM and he headed over there after 7PM.


It seems to me that there are better ways to deal with people than immediately going to tear gas and rubber bullets, imo.

Serious question though - would it matter to you if it were before curfew? What would your reaction be in that case? Is it just a timing thing?
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby no name on Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:33 am

I consider myself a democrat, but I have voted for republican presidents/candiates. I don't always agree with Democrats or Republicans sides of points of view. No one side I can always agree with, I think on my own. I watch enough news to see the blinders on both sides of our 2 party system. I consider it a blessing to be able to vote in this country and do so every year, can't say I ever found a candidate that I agreed with all the time.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby steelershark on Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:19 pm

where are the governors, where are the mayors? they are allowing this crap on the street.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Cow_Master66 on Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:16 pm

Do yourselves a favor and turn the channel. I make a point to flip back and forth from Fox to CNN to hear both sides of the story. I’ve aways done this but the delta in coverage during these riots(fox) / protests (cnn) has never been so wide IMO. If it wasn’t so sad you could laugh at it. Fox showing cops being harassed, spit on, pelted with projectiles, and cars burning in DC as the perimeter around the White House was expanded. CNN showing none if that, and just saying it was a peaceful protest and the cops used tear gas and rubber bullets so Trump could have a photo opp....same news, same area, totally different video and news.

So, as a Libertarian, I say this as an American...turn the channel to hear the other side for educational purposes alone.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Cow_Master66 on Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:17 pm

Do yourselves a favor and turn the channel. I make a point to flip back and forth from Fox to CNN to hear both sides of the story. I’ve aways done this but the delta in coverage during these riots(fox) / protests (cnn) has never been so wide IMO. If it wasn’t so sad you could laugh at it. Fox showing cops being harassed, spit on, pelted with projectiles, and cars burning in DC as the perimeter around the White House was expanded. CNN showing none if that, and just saying it was a peaceful protest and the cops used tear gas and rubber bullets so Trump could have a photo opp....same news, same area, totally different video and news.

So, as a Libertarian, I say this as an American...turn the channel to hear the other side for educational purposes alone.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby steelershark on Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:21 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:Do yourselves a favor and turn the channel. I make a point to flip back and forth from Fox to CNN to hear both sides of the story. I’ve aways done this but the delta in coverage during these riots(fox) / protests (cnn) has never been so wide IMO. If it wasn’t so sad you could laugh at it. Fox showing cops being harassed, spit on, pelted with projectiles, and cars burning in DC as the perimeter around the White House was expanded. CNN showing none if that, and just saying it was a peaceful protest and the cops used tear gas and rubber bullets so Trump could have a photo opp....same news, same area, totally different video and news.

So, as a Libertarian, I say this as an American...turn the channel to hear the other side for educational purposes alone.

I do not watch any network or cable news. Research everything on the internet. Takes more time, but get all the information. Then decide for myself what to believe.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby theblackarts on Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:27 pm

Daniel wrote:I've studied both and the liberal point of view is hooey while the conservative point of view is groovy. :fist:


Here are some questions for you: what is it that makes a majority (increasing at that) of scientists, doctors, philosophers, economists, artists and creatives, etc identify as liberal or progressive-minded? At the very least, what makes them identify as center-left on their least-zealous day? Surely the most educated and creative people the world can't all be misguided by such a noticeable and growing margin. Why do you think that republicans currently have the lowest registration compared to democrats and independents? Why are the majority of GOP voters increasingly older, white, religious, non-college graduates? There are a lot of concerning metrics when it comes to GOP affiliation which I haven't mentioned, but a common theme is that people who generally aren't exposed to a lot of other people, ideas, and cultures, etc. are registered as or vote conservative. I encourage everyone to think for themselves, but does any of that make you think twice about your conclusions? I have some guesses as to how you'll respond, but I'm genuinely curious as to how you'll explain this. And I'm not saying that the democratic party is the light and the way, but in terms of general political philosophical direction...

Also, you've mentioned collectivist and individualist a few times now, and I'm not sure that's a distinction worth making in a society where neither can function without the other.

Cowmaster, I would definitely not recommend watching network news ever, for any reason, other than to play a drinking game with your friends. Vet some journalists who you deem to be rational and see where that takes you.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Daniel on Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:11 pm

theblackarts wrote:
Daniel wrote:I've studied both and the liberal point of view is hooey while the conservative point of view is groovy. :fist:


Here are some questions for you: what is it that makes a majority (increasing at that) of scientists, doctors, philosophers, economists, artists and creatives, etc identify as liberal or progressive-minded? At the very least, what makes them identify as center-left on their least-zealous day? Surely the most educated and creative people the world can't all be misguided by such a noticeable and growing margin. Why do you think that republicans currently have the lowest registration compared to democrats and independents? Why are the majority of GOP voters increasingly older, white, religious, non-college graduates? There are a lot of concerning metrics when it comes to GOP affiliation which I haven't mentioned, but a common theme is that people who generally aren't exposed to a lot of other people, ideas, and cultures, etc. are registered as or vote conservative. I encourage everyone to think for themselves, but does any of that make you think twice about your conclusions? I have some guesses as to how you'll respond, but I'm genuinely curious as to how you'll explain this. And I'm not saying that the democratic party is the light and the way, but in terms of general political philosophical direction...

Also, you've mentioned collectivist and individualist a few times now, and I'm not sure that's a distinction worth making in a society where neither can function without the other.

Cowmaster, I would definitely not recommend watching network news ever, for any reason, other than to play a drinking game with your friends. Vet some journalists who you deem to be rational and see where that takes you.


Actually I gave that answer to be silly but I’ll give you a good answer, on my iPad at a coffee shop so will do the best I can, lol. On the surface both ideologies bring each other towards the middle and that’s a good thing. I’m pretty conservative when it comes to law and order and don’t fool yourself that I don’t see a liberal point of view. I understand where they’re coming from, I just need a legal and Constitutional means to apply it. I agree with your statement about collectivism vs. individualism needing each other.. This country is really about individualism (the rights of the individual), but we still need to cooperate in a collective to accomplish anything. Point of that, local community and neighborhood watch programs.

My problem with collectivism is this and I’ll give my thoughts on individualism problems as well. What seems to be happening is that the collective group is overriding the sense of the individual. People need to be responsible for their actions, not the group. The groupthink or group goals are first and foremost over the individual rights and responsibilities and I simply don’t agree with that philosophy. I’ve been told that I’m responsible for the sins of my race (seriously). I am no more responsible for what someone else does than anyone else is. No one represents me other than myself. Forced collectivism by law or physical force is bad and individuals can cooperate for the collective and that’s fine. If they won’t not much you can do, you can’t force people to pay taxes if they continually use loopholes to avoid them. I know someone who does exempt from taxes all year.....AND STILL GETS A REFUND. I work, pay taxes.....which I don’t believe is theft....and that goes to the collective good of the country, which I am okay with. The Constitution allows Congress to tax, but it was indirect until the 16th amendment, which I don’t really agree with but the only thing to do is lobby for the change (which I’ve read people are doing). Taxes into them collective is a good thing, nice roads, good infrastructure, etc.

My problem with individualism is isolationism. I don’t agree with the taxation is theft, even if I agree that some programs shouldn’t be paid for by the collective and I’d rather a better tax form but those are issues within the agreement of taxes. Individualism goes wrong when people just stay within themselves and don’t interact with other people, even a polite hello can make for good community. I believe in an America first philosophy, but I believe that about all countries. We need materials from other countries and can sell our good to them. We can’t be fully isolated anymore, and I doubt it was all that successful 100 years ago.

I’m not going to get into the educated vs non educated. Having a degree doesn’t necessarily make you smarter (look at Dubya, lol). I think conservatives will have more common sense and liberals will have more degrees, but that’s just as much of an assumption and it’s all just statistics. I can quote Reagans “liberals know a lot of what’s not true” and you can find a quote and we can quote each other to death, just not worth getting into a debate like that. I’ll concede that liberals are more educated and I’m sure you’ll concede that more common sense belongs to conservatives. As for the “exposed to other cultures” thing being exposed to a country isn’t the same as being exposed to the culture as a whole. A lot of people who go abroad tend to see things that remind them of home. I’ve been to a lot of countries and always did my own thing. Driven across Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland, South Africa and saw the small towns and regular people. Didn’t see a lot of American’s in those places, though I did in the bigger cities. I’ve talked to people in other countries, seen shanty town in Cape Town (you want a humbling view you can’t beat that). Even lived abroad for 6 months (London) and learned the culture rather than tourism. While I agree with you in principle about seeing more people, culture, etc. doesn’t mean liberal people, or conservative for that matter, get out of their bubble when they’re abroad, but again individual vs. groupthink and I won’t assume anything about the entire group.

Also, the actual concept of progressive can be both liberal and conservative as you well know. My view is that a truly progressive program will become conservative over time, the Constitution was incredibly progressive at the time and is now pretty conservative. Henry Ford was very progressive. The Democrat platform is terrible and would probably bankrupt this country, I think they’ve gone too far. I compared their platform from the 1920s, 1940s, 1960s, and today. Their platforms from before were pretty close to the Republicans (sorry it’s been awhile since I read them so can’t give specific, but I think concept of tariffs was a difference). Today’s platform defines big government and I believe in a small Constitutional republic where the feds deal with interstate commerce, national security, etc.

I want to end on this, I am not calling all conservatives republican and all liberals democrat. I don’t want to assume anything since people can be a democrat because they are fed up with republican and vice versa. I prefer discussing liberal vs. conservative without politics.

I have never voted republican until Ted Cruz for senate (I legit like him). I look at an issue with as much openness as possible and come across as conservative because I try to follow the law and Constitution, doesn’t mean I don’t wish I could find a way to do XYZ liberal cause. I consider myself a progressive in terms of wanting to learn and wanting to have new experiences. I just need logic and facts to be persuaded rather than emotion. Doesn’t mean I don’t see the emotion, I just want rational instead. Also, sometimes hard to do this kind of debate/discussion on a message board.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby theblackarts on Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:31 pm

Thank you for the thoughtful reply; this is pretty much what I thought you'd say.

Daniel wrote:My problem with collectivism is this and I’ll give my thoughts on individualism problems as well. What seems to be happening is that the collective group is overriding the sense of the individual. People need to be responsible for their actions, not the group. The groupthink or group goals are first and foremost over the individual rights and responsibilities and I simply don’t agree with that philosophy. I’ve been told that I’m responsible for the sins of my race (seriously). I am no more responsible for what someone else does than anyone else is. No one represents me other than myself. Forced collectivism by law or physical force is bad and individuals can cooperate for the collective and that’s fine. If they won’t not much you can do, you can’t force people to pay taxes if they continually use loopholes to avoid them. I know someone who does exempt from taxes all year.....AND STILL GETS A REFUND. I work, pay taxes.....which I don’t believe is theft....and that goes to the collective good of the country, which I am okay with. The Constitution allows Congress to tax, but it was indirect until the 16th amendment, which I don’t really agree with but the only thing to do is lobby for the change (which I’ve read people are doing). Taxes into them collective is a good thing, nice roads, good infrastructure, etc.


I'm not really sure where you're getting this idea of group > individual, but I assure you that no liberals, at least, none that I know or have heard of, think like that. I've listened to quite a few liberal minds discuss leftist and centrist politics, and this has literally never come up, aside from everyone more or less agreeing that identity politics is not the answer. No liberals want to give anyone anything that they haven't earned by virtue of existing. Imagine if people of color were rioting for revenge or reparations, instead of simply equality? If paying taxes for the common good is good, how is healthcare not part of the collective good? I think the dividends that would be paid by a healthcare safety net are far beyond what you can imagine. Do you know how many IQ points the average person loses when they're stressed about money? It's a thing, check it out. If you're talking about expanding social programs, I think the cases for doing so are quite well documented given the state of wealth in the country over the last 70 years or so, as well as our falling life expectancy.

Daniel wrote:My problem with individualism is isolationism. I don’t agree with the taxation is theft, even if I agree that some programs shouldn’t be paid for by the collective and I’d rather a better tax form but those are issues within the agreement of taxes. Individualism goes wrong when people just stay within themselves and don’t interact with other people, even a polite hello can make for good community. I believe in an America first philosophy, but I believe that about all countries. We need materials from other countries and can sell our good to them. We can’t be fully isolated anymore, and I doubt it was all that successful 100 years ago.


America first would be fine with me if we had just come out of world war ii and were struggling to get on our own two feet. Do you not feel that as crusaders for democracy and (formerly) a bastion for law and order, we have a responsibility to lead by example? Do you not feel that we have the ability to take from our plenty and for instance, fund the UN program that you previously shared?

Daniel wrote:I’m not going to get into the educated vs non educated. Having a degree doesn’t necessarily make you smarter (look at Dubya, lol). I think conservatives will have more common sense and liberals will have more degrees, but that’s just as much of an assumption and it’s all just statistics. I can quote Reagans “liberals know a lot of what’s not true” and you can find a quote and we can quote each other to death, just not worth getting into a debate like that. I’ll concede that liberals are more educated and I’m sure you’ll concede that more common sense belongs to conservatives.


I most definitely will not concede that conservatives have more common sense. It's not possible to have a sense of morality/ethics that's anchored in 1940 and exercise common sense in 2020. That's just not going to cut it. Times have changed. For instance, common sense gun control. It's hard to get much more common sensical than that. And where is your common sense rooted? If you live in a cultural bubble in arkansas, it's hard to gauge what sort of common sense would be appropriate when talking about a minority living NYC.

You are correct in that having a degree doesn't necessarily make you smarter, but the numbers are not in your favor here. We're talking large gaps in achievement. This exists internationally as well. For instance, I think a few years ago, MIT was 49% democrat and 9% republican, or something similar. That should be alarming. Is it not? Also, "it's all just statistics" is very, very important, haha. That's how we learn things.

Daniel wrote:As for the “exposed to other cultures” thing being exposed to a country isn’t the same as being exposed to the culture as a whole. A lot of people who go abroad tend to see things that remind them of home. I’ve been to a lot of countries and always did my own thing. Driven across Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland, South Africa and saw the small towns and regular people. Didn’t see a lot of American’s in those places, though I did in the bigger cities. I’ve talked to people in other countries, seen shanty town in Cape Town (you want a humbling view you can’t beat that). Even lived abroad for 6 months (London) and learned the culture rather than tourism. While I agree with you in principle about seeing more people, culture, etc. doesn’t mean liberal people, or conservative for that matter, get out of their bubble when they’re abroad, but again individual vs. groupthink and I won’t assume anything about the entire group.


I think you're missing my point here. Living in a metropolitan area means that you sit on a bus with different races of different socioeconomic backgrounds, get a hot dog from an immigrant, get Ethiopian for dinner on a thursday night, witness someone being arrested for no reason, and generally interact with people who don't look and talk like you on a daily basis. That's really important for understanding the plights of others. They become real, just like our own problems, instead of this imaginary thing that's happening to someone else, somewhere else.

Daniel wrote: Also, the actual concept of progressive can be both liberal and conservative as you well know. My view is that a truly progressive program will become conservative over time, the Constitution was incredibly progressive at the time and is now pretty conservative. Henry Ford was very progressive. The Democrat platform is terrible and would probably bankrupt this country, I think they’ve gone too far. I compared their platform from the 1920s, 1940s, 1960s, and today. Their platforms from before were pretty close to the Republicans (sorry it’s been awhile since I read them so can’t give specific, but I think concept of tariffs was a difference). Today’s platform defines big government and I believe in a small Constitutional republic where the feds deal with interstate commerce, national security, etc.


Comparing the platform of any party across 100 years should absolutely show radical change. The country has changed. It's inhabitants have changed. The state of the world has changed. The state of democracy has changed, wildly. If you think the same ideas that lead to a stable way of life in 1920-1960 will be effective in a country undergoing as much change as we are, I don't know what to tell you.

So far as the democratic platform bankrupting the country, I think you're wildly overreacting. First of all, if you think the democratic establishment wants to make less money for any reason, you're kidding yourself. If Biden is elected, the dems will keep the corporate $ cycle going for another four years and then we'll see who gets to crank the $ merry go round next. Money needs to be taken out of politics, and Biden has promised to repeal citizens united. That won't solve everything, but where are the republicans calling for such a common sense change?

Daniel wrote:I have never voted republican until Ted Cruz for senate (I legit like him). I look at an issue with as much openness as possible and come across as conservative because I try to follow the law and Constitution, doesn’t mean I don’t wish I could find a way to do XYZ liberal cause. I consider myself a progressive in terms of wanting to learn and wanting to have new experiences. I just need logic and facts to be persuaded rather than emotion. Doesn’t mean I don’t see the emotion, I just want rational instead. Also, sometimes hard to do this kind of debate/discussion on a message board.


I'm going to ignore your support for Cruz, but let's talk about being a progressive republican. Where are the calls for aggressive climate action? I'm waiting to hear a single conservative policy that stands to impact the US as much as climate change. Where are the calls for healthcare reform? Covid has blown our healthcare issues wide open on top of the opioid issues. Trumpcare was the joke to end all jokes. Where are the calls for common sense gun control? Where are the calls for immigration reform vs building a wall? Honestly that's the most trogloditic use of money in the history of the world. Building a wall in 2020. Dear Lord. That's not progressive. What's up with reversing Roe v Wade? Are we being serious? The health and societal driven data is clear and present. There are some SUPER basic issues that conservatives lump in with legitimate fiscal and legal concerns, and honestly it wreaks of nationalist, short-sighted, anti-common sense, backwards, fear-based thinking. We're gonna go back to the golden age, bring back coal, etc. It's a predatory joke, aimed at the paranoid. The GOP isn't taken seriously by the educated for this reason primarily, among others. It would do well to update itself to deal with the issues of the present.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Jim on Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:26 pm

THIS THREAD MEEDS TO BE LOCKED

I didn't think there could be more dumbass in this thread... I was wrong.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby theblackarts on Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:39 am

Jim wrote:THIS THREAD MEEDS TO BE LOCKED

I didn't think there could be more dumbass in this thread... I was wrong.


*dumbassery but good try. I’ve already messaged admin, two mods, and the thread creator, but no luck. That was days ago.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Southern Fan on Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:53 am

Jim wrote:THIS THREAD MEEDS TO BE LOCKED

I didn't think there could be more dumbass in this thread... I was wrong.



How about NHR? Or link to 5AF?
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby theblackarts on Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:12 am

Southern Fan wrote:
Jim wrote:THIS THREAD MEEDS TO BE LOCKED

I didn't think there could be more dumbass in this thread... I was wrong.



How about NHR? Or link to 5AF?


Either would be great. We're way past the useful life of this thread.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Jim on Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:53 am

If someone wants to talk politics just start a politics thread in NHR. Anyone can start threads.
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