Early Take on Zucker Trade

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What's your initial reaction to the trade for Zucker?

Poll ended at Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:22 pm

Steal for the Pens!
4
12%
Wash, even for even
9
26%
WTF, Billy G has photos of GMJR...pens got Robbed
5
15%
Too early yet to have an opinion, want to see some games first
16
47%
 
Total votes : 34

Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:41 pm

Odd Man Rush wrote:Barring injury, I don’t think there’s even a 5% chance that Galchenyuk outscores Zucker the rest of the way.

Zucker is going to play every night with an elite center. Galchenyuk isn’t even guaranteed to be a Minnesota’s lineup every night. When he is, there’s a really good chance he’s going to be on their third or fourth line.

Both will probably be on their respective teams’ second power play units.

Also, Zucker looks like a legitimate NHL player. Galchenyuk looks more like an AHL or KHL player.

If I were to try and defend Galchenyuk, I would say it is very puzzling. He's scored 40 points or more in each of the past 5 seasons. He's had 19 goals each of the past 2 seasons (1 away from 20), a 17 goal season, a 30 goal season, and a 20 goal season.

It would be one thing if he was an aging player, or if coaches said he was lazy. But he's neither. He just turned 26, and Tocchet, as well as Sullivan and Rutherford, repeatedly talked about how much practice and effort he gives. He was one of the hardest practicing players when he was here. I mean, the guy put a mini ice rink in this garage (synthetic ice I think) in Arizona to be able to practice more.

He's going to sign with someone next year, hopefully someone that can look at his film and say, Galchenyuk should fit in very well with our system, or, with these few adjustments, they can make it work. He was really bad for us, but, he's never been a horrible player. He hasn't lived up to his #3 overall status...I don't know, maybe he really needs to go back to playing center. Hope someone is able to figure it out.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby midd on Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:40 pm

I missed the vote. But I think the Pens will win this deal. Zucker and Sid have already found some chemistry shortly after the trade. With three years left, he's going to put up some numbers if he stays with Sid. Imagine those two with Jake when he gets back? That line will be lethal.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby Steve Dave on Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:23 pm

midd wrote:I missed the vote. But I think the Pens will win this deal. Zucker and Sid have already found some chemistry shortly after the trade. With three years left, he's going to put up some numbers if he stays with Sid. Imagine those two with Jake when he gets back? That line will be lethal.

I’d put Jake with Malkin and Rust tbh. That line was tearing it up facing opponents’ top defenses. Imagine teams trying to gameplan against Zucker Crosby ? and Guentzel Malkin Rust.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby LimerickPensFan on Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:39 pm

Steve Dave wrote:
midd wrote:I missed the vote. But I think the Pens will win this deal. Zucker and Sid have already found some chemistry shortly after the trade. With three years left, he's going to put up some numbers if he stays with Sid. Imagine those two with Jake when he gets back? That line will be lethal.

I’d put Jake with Malkin and Rust tbh. That line was tearing it up facing opponents’ top defenses. Imagine teams trying to gameplan against Zucker Crosby ? and Guentzel Malkin Rust.

? will be Simon - at least as long as he's on the team. Both Sid and Zucker have raved about him.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby no name on Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:13 am

Steve Dave wrote:
midd wrote:I missed the vote. But I think the Pens will win this deal. Zucker and Sid have already found some chemistry shortly after the trade. With three years left, he's going to put up some numbers if he stays with Sid. Imagine those two with Jake when he gets back? That line will be lethal.

I’d put Jake with Malkin and Rust tbh. That line was tearing it up facing opponents’ top defenses. Imagine teams trying to gameplan against Zucker Crosby ? and Guentzel Malkin Rust.



Agree Malkin, Guentzel(when healthy) and Rust are great together. Simon is finally starting to get points of late so stick with him with Zucker and Sid. I do like having Horney getting spot duty with Sid from time to time. Just totally brings a different feel to his line. I am not holding my breath Jake is back this year. Best case is he would be back during the 3rd round.

Zucker trade was even, we gave up some to get some. Win now, I think you sell Geno and Sid short if you don't go for it.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby ville5 on Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:20 am

He's ruining everything! He's worth 4 points when it should be 3, everyone keeps taking him so I have to pick some other crappy player, I can't ketchup- ;).....waaaaaaaa.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby 100565 on Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:04 am

No offense to PensPal (I miss your morning after thoughts! They are the best.), but the poll was bizarre. It asked what your INITIAL reaction to the trade was. I took that to mean - when I first heard about the trade, what was my reaction...as in my initial thought. 47% of the people who answered the poll apparently had no reaction when they first learned about the trade - too early to tell, which is contradictory to "initial". Having 'too early to tell' in a poll asking for "initial reaction" is bizarre to me.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby jf on Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:29 pm

I missed the poll , but I would say it was an even trade . Sid needs to have a right handed shooting forward on his line .
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby stonewizard51 on Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:31 pm

I was one who voted for too early to tell. FWIW I felt the same way about Brassard. Eventually he let me down. So far Zucker hasn't. If Jake comes back this year, which I seriously doubt, I would agree with keeping the top line as is (cough) with Simon playing on the top line (cough) and moving Jake to Geno's line. They did produce before Jake was injured.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby murphydump55 on Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:01 pm

I've watched a fair bit of Zucker on TV as well as live being that I make trips to the Twin Cities and catch some games.

His speed has always been apparent and I know this would mesh relatively well with Crosby (see Dupuis, Guentzel, Sheary, Simon). All of these guys can skate and in turn fit in nicely alongside him. Dupuis came here with virtually no hands, but had the speed and work ethic. His previous high of 10 goals was broken every season in Pittsburgh and he even scored 25 one year and 20 in 48 another year. Sheary scored 23 goals in 61 games skating mostly with Crosby. Again, speed, work ethic, and this time a bit of hands. Simon while not having the finish of either of the aforementioned yet, does a lot of little things well to fit in with Sid. He's great at zone entries, helps with possession, has patience and poise, and can also skate and distribute the puck.

Zucker scored 21 in 51 games. 22, 33, 21. He has goal scoring ability while probably playing his best hockey next to Staal or Granlund. Zucker also has defensive awareness that a guy like Sheary doesn't have. He has the speed that Dupuis and Sheary have/had. He's a good forechecker, much like Dupuis was, and doesn't handle the puck like grenade. He has some poise and knows how to find the soft spots on the ice. Review his goals and you'll see a TON of goals coming around the net where he finds ways to get himself open. He also has a great one timer that potted him a bunch in close. (He can feed off Sid's down low passing)

So speed? Check. Defensive awareness? Check. Forecheck? Check. Hands? Check. Offensive awareness? Check.

It would have been hard to believe that he wouldn't fit well with Sid. There's obviously the off chance that a guy just doesn't fit on a team (Galchenyuk, Brassard) but Zucker seems to be tailor made for Sid's style of play. Many will say he isn't good and they'll regret the move, I guess we are allowed to disagree.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby Puck-Lurker on Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:03 pm

Zucker cost a 1st. Gave up Addison to dump Galchenyuk to make it happen. Won that trade, even if Addison pans out.

Drafted players: Rust (3rd), Lafferty (4th), Blueger (2nd), Angello (5th), Simon (5th), Murray (3rd), Jarry (2nd), Guentzel (3rd), Letang (3rd), Malkin (1s), Crosby (1st).

Apart from Geno and Sid, none of our guys are 1st round picks. Sure we picked up former 1st rounders from other teams through trades, but that doesn't factor for our 1st rounders. Add in UDFA signings (Riikola, ZAR, DeSmith) and... do we really need a late 1st round pick?!

Beyond the early first round, it's a craps shoot.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby RentedMule66 on Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:54 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I would have liked to have seen the Penguins get a 2nd back in the deal, since we now are missing a 1st and 2nd, but, our 1st is closer to NJD/Detroit 2nd round pick, and, while we had Addison rated very high, in a deeper prospect system, he's probably the 3rd or 4th best option.

In the end, I think like Tanev, the Penguins identified Zucker long ago as a player that will fit their system very well. They got their man. If they are right with Zucker like they were with Tanev, people won't be losing their **** for too long.


The difference with Tanev though is that the concerns were merely financial and length. In the end as long as it doesn't disrupt their roster building because of salary cap issues, who cares. With Zucker, they gave up a top prospect from a not very deep system. If Zucker works out, great no worries. If they don't win the cup, the system is even worse and when they need to upgrade they have one less piece.

I hope you're right about Zucker being a difference maker, but I don't think he's any better than Rust, McCann, Kahun, he's just been in the league longer. I also don't think he's the difference between a 2nd round exit and winning the cup. I think giving up a guy like Addison should be for a special player, one that Zucker is not.


A guy like Addison? Outside of maybe the WJ’s, have you seen him play? I’m willing to bet many haven’t. If you did watch the WJ, I wouldn’t put too much stock into a two week tourney. He’s not highly ranked either.

The Pens have dealt away a bunch prospects over the years. Can anyone name one that came back to bite them?

I’ll start. Kapanen. He might be the best that they’ve traded, but it resulted in 2 Cups. After that? Maybe Sundqvist, but I hated that trade from the start.

Despres?
Sprong?
Morrow?
Pouliot?
Esposito?

It’s pretty hard to find one that truly hurt and looked bad.



Someone gets it!
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby Hatrick on Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:19 am

Puck-Lurker wrote:Zucker cost a 1st. Gave up Addison to dump Galchenyuk to make it happen. Won that trade, even if Addison pans out.

Drafted players: Rust (3rd), Lafferty (4th), Blueger (2nd), Angello (5th), Simon (5th), Murray (3rd), Jarry (2nd), Guentzel (3rd), Letang (3rd), Malkin (1s), Crosby (1st).

Apart from Geno and Sid, none of our guys are 1st round picks. Sure we picked up former 1st rounders from other teams through trades, but that doesn't factor for our 1st rounders. Add in UDFA signings (Riikola, ZAR, DeSmith) and... do we really need a late 1st round pick?!

Beyond the early first round, it's a craps shoot.

it doesn't cost a high prospect to "get rid of" a guy who they didn't even need to get rid of. AT WORST Galchenyuk was a complete after thought.

So its a first and Addison for Zucker. Which still seems like an overpay but it will be a while before we can fully judge it.

As for the value of a first, I do agree a late round first isn't tremendously valuable, although your comparison of draft round of current players, has a bit of a chicken and the egg problem. How do you have first round draft picks in your lineup if you give up your first round pick or trade the prospect that you drafted? A better show of it not having as much value is who they actually HAVE drafted with it. (or at who other teams drafted from a similar slot to what we hope the penguins are picking at).

not counting this past draft due to being too recent to have an impact
Kapanen(2014), who has made it to NHL and is pretty decent with Toronto but not a star by any means
(2012) Pouliot, Maatta. Pouliot was a bust despite the place he was picked and the high potential. Maatta was a good player here but again did not live up to what it looked like he could have been
(2011) Joe Morrow, I know he was with Dallas and then Boston, but not sure is he even in the NHL anymore?
(2010) Bennett(Best known for Beau's injured)
(2009) Depres-was a good pick, the concussion derailed his career

After going through them the track record is actually slightly worse than I thought, forgot a couple of them were first rounders tbh. Part of that could be the drafting under Shero, but I lean more towards it being the end of the first round being productive but a crap shoot into what quality of NHL player you can get.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby Jim on Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:49 pm

I had said in another thread that I was going to give him 10 games as a Pens before commenting on Zucker as a Pen.

As a Wild
29 pts in 45 games; 0.644 ppg
20 ev pts in 45 games; 0.444 ev ppg

As a Penguin
7 pts in 10 games; 0.700 ppg,
5 ev pts in 10 games; 0.500 ev ppg

Time on ice:
Wild: 15:54
Pens: 17:25

He is very close to the same per game production as a Pen as he was with the Wild, but also getting 1:31 more ice time per game, making his P/60 actually less as a Penguin.

Ev time as a Pen:
87.92% with Crosby
2.5% with Malkin (and not Crosby)
9.58% with neither Crosby nor Malkin

So spending 90% of his ev strength time with Crosby or Malkin, and he is not doing better than he was with the Wild centers that everyone was blasting. However, 0.7ppg is solid, 55 point rate is decent. But for the other things that he does (doesn't do) on the ice, $5.5M, a 1st and Addison... It's not exactly a win. He certainly isn't being a Galchenyuk or a Brassard... but it's still a lot got what they got.

Not sure that the chemistry is working out with Crosby though. HUGE numbers for Crosby the first 4 games, but only 1 point for Crosby in the last 6. Zucker had 4 points in 4 games, then 3 in the next 6 (including a 2 goal game). Maybe once the newness wore off it really just isn't there.

After 10 games, I still don't give this trade a thumbs up.
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Re: Early Take on Zucker Trade

Postby ahawk9 on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:05 pm

Interesting numbers, Jim. I'm still 50-50 on the deal. While I do think Zucker will adjust fine and end up being a good player for a number of years, I still feel Rutherford overpaid a little for him. I know there's a win-now mindset, and there should be, but I think you can try to win now without throwing away every draft pick and prospect. I hope Zucker-Crosby finds some chemistry with time. I would like Zucker's numbers to go up more than they have, especially now that he's getting more ice time and is playing with Crosby. But maybe he is what he is, or maybe he'll settle in with time. He's pretty good, but he's nowhere near Guentzel. I like what I saw of Addison, but obviously there's no guarantee there. The Pens picked Poulin 21st and he's apparently going to push for a roster spot, so I'd have liked them to keep the 2020 pick, but I get why they did what they did. ...I do think a team like the Capitals has continued its success because they have kept most of their first rounders during the Ovechkin era, and they have chosen pretty well with them (Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Samsonov, Wilson, Carlson, Vrana, Varlomov, and even the one they regret, Forsberg). Just checked and they've kept 13 (17 if you include the years they had two) out of 15, not including picking Ovi. Pens have kept 8 in the same time (9 if you include the year they had two). Pens have done OK mining the later rounds (Guentzel is exhibit #1), but I'd just like to see them hold on to some firsts. This offseason will be interesting because Jimmy has some serious moves to consider. His job pressure will increase if there's an early playoff exit again this year.

Just an observation, and I can't say I'd trade anything because I've seen 3 Cups in the Crosby/Malkin era and 5 overall. But, some of Shero's later moves screwed with the chemistry of teams. Add that to his Bylsma love and they wasted a few years of the "window." Makes me gun-shy when it comes to some of Rutherford's moves lately. Zucker? OK. Marleau? Yeah, I get it. Sheary and Rodrigues for Kahun? Hmmmm, not really on board.

Wait, what was the topic again? #wordyoldman
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