Bobby Mac reporting trade

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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:02 am

In the end the Pens traded Kessel, 2020 1st, 2021 4th, and Calen Addison for Zucker and Pierre-Olivier Joseph.

Even if Addison and Joseph wash Kessel a 1st and 4th for Zucker doesn't look that good on paper.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Hatrick on Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:07 am

this is exactly what I was afraid of and why I hoped Minnesota wouldn't trade him at all. When Rutherford is focused on a guy he gets him no matter what the outrageous costs(which is a good and a bad trait at times, in this case its a bad trait). If it was just the 1st and Galchenyuk that would have been alright, but throwing Addison in is the major issue.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Hatrick on Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:09 am

thehockeyguru wrote:In the end the Pens traded Kessel, 2020 1st, 2021 4th, and Calen Addison for Zucker and Pierre-Olivier Joseph.

Even if Addison and Joseph wash Kessel a 1st and 4th for Zucker doesn't look that good on paper.

even if POJ was better than a wash that looks awful on paper
Kessel+4th on their own is better than Zucker and why I was glad when Phil vetoed the trade last year, GMJR just couldn't let Phil do him a favor and messed up even more.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Maestro on Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:41 am

A lot to give up for a 4th liner
:)
Seriously, that TSN article may have been final nail.

Can still bring in Alec Martinez with AG gone.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:28 am

Hatrick wrote:this is exactly what I was afraid of and why I hoped Minnesota wouldn't trade him at all. When Rutherford is focused on a guy he gets him no matter what the outrageous costs(which is a good and a bad trait at times, in this case its a bad trait). If it was just the 1st and Galchenyuk that would have been alright, but throwing Addison in is the major issue.

Zucker was worth more than just a 1st and Galchenyuk. The problem is, the Penguins have Addison, Poulin, Legare, Hallander.....then a huge cliff....then guys like Bellerive, Bjorkqvist, Almeida, etc. It's like saying this widget cost $12, we only accept cash and have no change....and you have two singles, a $5 bill, and a $20. $7 isn't enough. You either got to pay the $20, or you don't get your widget.

The other thing people seem to forget...our system is ranked 28th out of 31 teams. Addison was our top prospect in most rankings. In a top 10 system, he's probably only the 4th or 5th best prospect. Penguins fans views are a bit skewed because we haven't had much decent prospects in our system. We have some good prospects, but, 10-20 teams could all throw a better prospect out there than what Pittsburgh had to offer.

I would have liked to have gotten a 2nd back in the deal. That would have made the price a little easier for most, I think. But as I mentioned in my blog post, the Penguins can still likely recoup some high picks or high prospects by trading Murray this summer. And adding Zucker, IMO, is a big step forward towards Murray being dealt.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby GSdrums87 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:38 am

Dude is an absolute perfect fit for this team. Great swap.

Guesses vs a sure thing. If you have 3 more years of Sid and Geno, you gotta go for it. This makes our top 6 INSANE for years.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Cow_Master66 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:40 am

Not a huge fan of Zucker but the price is definitely not as steep as being implied here. Great to get AG off the books, and like it’s been suggested they can potentially recoup the pick this summer.

Addison was nothing more than potential, and if he was a forward I may feel differently, considering what how dire that situation is.

Hoping he slots right in and his personal issues are not a problem.

Go Pens!
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Hatrick on Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:55 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Hatrick wrote:this is exactly what I was afraid of and why I hoped Minnesota wouldn't trade him at all. When Rutherford is focused on a guy he gets him no matter what the outrageous costs(which is a good and a bad trait at times, in this case its a bad trait). If it was just the 1st and Galchenyuk that would have been alright, but throwing Addison in is the major issue.

Zucker was worth more than just a 1st and Galchenyuk. The problem is, the Penguins have Addison, Poulin, Legare, Hallander.....then a huge cliff....then guys like Bellerive, Bjorkqvist, Almeida, etc. It's like saying this widget cost $12, we only accept cash and have no change....and you have two singles, a $5 bill, and a $20. $7 isn't enough. You either got to pay the $20, or you don't get your widget.

The other thing people seem to forget...our system is ranked 28th out of 31 teams. Addison was our top prospect in most rankings. In a top 10 system, he's probably only the 4th or 5th best prospect. Penguins fans views are a bit skewed because we haven't had much decent prospects in our system. We have some good prospects, but, 10-20 teams could all throw a better prospect out there than what Pittsburgh had to offer.

I would have liked to have gotten a 2nd back in the deal. That would have made the price a little easier for most, I think. But as I mentioned in my blog post, the Penguins can still likely recoup some high picks or high prospects by trading Murray this summer. And adding Zucker, IMO, is a big step forward towards Murray being dealt.

I don't think Zucker was worth more than a 1st and Galchenyuk but I do agree with regards to the cliff after the top four. Ways to mitigate with the not having the right number of pices to add up to $12 is to have the other side add some value back on. Through either retention or draft picks. I don't think Minnesota was ever going to retain on Zucker so the more likely should have been picks coming back in the deal if Minnesota wanted Addison then they should have had to throw in at least one second in return.
So rather than having two $1 bills, one $5bill and a $20 bill trying to add up to $12, you give that $20 but you make them give up $8 on top of the $12 widget.
If Pittsburgh gave up the same package but Minnesota also either retained 1.5million(which brings Zucker to a proper cap hit) OR gave back a 2nd and 4th I think it would be at least closer to a fair deal(still an overpay but a more expected one, not that severe of one).
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby murphydump55 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:07 am

Hatrick wrote:this is exactly what I was afraid of and why I hoped Minnesota wouldn't trade him at all. When Rutherford is focused on a guy he gets him no matter what the outrageous costs(which is a good and a bad trait at times, in this case its a bad trait). If it was just the 1st and Galchenyuk that would have been alright, but throwing Addison in is the major issue.


Galchenyuk is worth nothing to the Wild, he’s UFA and likely wasn’t requested by them. He was included for cap purposes. There’s is the off chance that they could unload him for a pick to a team looking for some playoff depth.

To say that you would have been okay with he and a 1st for Zucker is kinda dreaming. The guy has averaged 25 goals a season over the last 3 with 3 more years to go. You are paying up for term. There are teams that will likely give up the equivalent or more for a rental at the deadline. As I said before, Hartman went for a 1st!

The guy can skate, is solid defensively, and can score. I’m curious to see what he does with a Geno or Sid.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Pens4Life on Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:10 am

Zucker will fit in nicely, he probably aint a game changer, but lets see. Maybe we gave up a bit much with Addison going, but also we get something back in Murray trade in few months.
Now we need one more vet D depth guy for insurance, 7# for playoffs if Mike doesnt trust Chad or Jusso.. If he does, we dont need nobody on D, but some forward for 4th line or just play Blandisi, Bjugstad and Lafferty there.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Puck-Lurker on Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:28 am

Gave up a to be drafted 1st and a 2nd rd prospect that looked decent.

Adding in the Kessel deal, it doesn't look that bad.
Kessel, Addison, Birks, 1st and 4th
Zucker, POJ

All depends on whether Zucker does anything, or becomes a Galchenyuk or Brassard.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby BlackNGold4Life on Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:33 am

This is why Jim Rutherford is a great GM. He’s not perfect but he always makes a move when needed and most of the time his trades are wirh term.

Zucker with term for a late first and a former second round prospect in Addison is great value.

His assets management has been above average.

Zucker’s play is what you’d hope for a top 10 pick to become outside of the top 5. Let’s say Addison was 24 and playing 5/6 role on a 3 year deal. You could argue that Zucker for Addison (playing in NHL) and a late first is a decent deal.

Marino, POJ, Zucker for Phil, Addison and a few late round pics are the major assets most recently moved and or acquired. All moves enable others. Marino made this deal a no brainer since he plays like a 1st rounder.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Antonio on Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:38 am

I don't disagree with the above post. IF he produces 25-30g a year and 50-60 points for 5.5m, we would all say that's pretty close to a standard contract value now. As stated, if that's what we drafted with our late first round pick, then we'd generally be ecstatic with the pick. So basically in that regard, we win by getting a much higher chance that's what that pick turns into, since Zucker has a history that shows that's a very possible or even likely outcome. The only real question is Addison. He's nothing at the moment. Could be a star but he could be a failure. He doesn't really have enough pedigree and data to indicate it's super likely he turns into a star but who knows. As it stands, I'd say this is pretty solid overall risk vs reward vs return.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Hatrick on Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:54 am

murphydump55 wrote:
Hatrick wrote:this is exactly what I was afraid of and why I hoped Minnesota wouldn't trade him at all. When Rutherford is focused on a guy he gets him no matter what the outrageous costs(which is a good and a bad trait at times, in this case its a bad trait). If it was just the 1st and Galchenyuk that would have been alright, but throwing Addison in is the major issue.


Galchenyuk is worth nothing to the Wild, he’s UFA and likely wasn’t requested by them. He was included for cap purposes. There’s is the off chance that they could unload him for a pick to a team looking for some playoff depth.

To say that you would have been okay with he and a 1st for Zucker is kinda dreaming. The guy has averaged 25 goals a season over the last 3 with 3 more years to go. You are paying up for term. There are teams that will likely give up the equivalent or more for a rental at the deadline. As I said before, Hartman went for a 1st!

The guy can skate, is solid defensively, and can score. I’m curious to see what he does with a Geno or Sid.

except they did not need to move him for cap reasons, so there was no other reason to include him except A. to give him a chance to play somewhere B. wild wanted him as a throw in.

As for Zucker hit 30 goals ONCE in his career, his high other than is 22. Also only one season over 50 points. Averaging 25 goals and 50+pts sounds like a pretty good player, but when one year looks like an outlier and his salary is being paid based on that outlier year, you end up with a good but overpaid player. A good but overpaid player is not dreaming to think giving up a first and Galchenyuk would be appropriate. ( FWIW Galchenyuk also averaged roughly 20goals and roughly 50points prior to this year, but not nearly as good in the rest of his game as Zucker. I hope his time here turns out MUCH differently.)

I do think Zucker can increase his totals playing with Sid and Geno but as we have learned over the years, not everyone does experience that increase, some you expect a big increase and it doesn't happen, others something clicks and magic happens.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:28 am

Hatrick wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Hatrick wrote:this is exactly what I was afraid of and why I hoped Minnesota wouldn't trade him at all. When Rutherford is focused on a guy he gets him no matter what the outrageous costs(which is a good and a bad trait at times, in this case its a bad trait). If it was just the 1st and Galchenyuk that would have been alright, but throwing Addison in is the major issue.

Zucker was worth more than just a 1st and Galchenyuk. The problem is, the Penguins have Addison, Poulin, Legare, Hallander.....then a huge cliff....then guys like Bellerive, Bjorkqvist, Almeida, etc. It's like saying this widget cost $12, we only accept cash and have no change....and you have two singles, a $5 bill, and a $20. $7 isn't enough. You either got to pay the $20, or you don't get your widget.

The other thing people seem to forget...our system is ranked 28th out of 31 teams. Addison was our top prospect in most rankings. In a top 10 system, he's probably only the 4th or 5th best prospect. Penguins fans views are a bit skewed because we haven't had much decent prospects in our system. We have some good prospects, but, 10-20 teams could all throw a better prospect out there than what Pittsburgh had to offer.

I would have liked to have gotten a 2nd back in the deal. That would have made the price a little easier for most, I think. But as I mentioned in my blog post, the Penguins can still likely recoup some high picks or high prospects by trading Murray this summer. And adding Zucker, IMO, is a big step forward towards Murray being dealt.

I don't think Zucker was worth more than a 1st and Galchenyuk but I do agree with regards to the cliff after the top four. Ways to mitigate with the not having the right number of pices to add up to $12 is to have the other side add some value back on. Through either retention or draft picks. I don't think Minnesota was ever going to retain on Zucker so the more likely should have been picks coming back in the deal if Minnesota wanted Addison then they should have had to throw in at least one second in return.
So rather than having two $1 bills, one $5bill and a $20 bill trying to add up to $12, you give that $20 but you make them give up $8 on top of the $12 widget.
If Pittsburgh gave up the same package but Minnesota also either retained 1.5million(which brings Zucker to a proper cap hit) OR gave back a 2nd and 4th I think it would be at least closer to a fair deal(still an overpay but a more expected one, not that severe of one).

I would have liked to have seen a 2nd come back, more because we dont have a 1st or 2nd now. No way we would have got two picks.

Reading some of the Athletic stuff tonight, even NHL scouts aren't sold on Addison. Everyone knows his offense. Defense will be the question. One scout said he is undersized and his skating is ok but not great. Another scout said he really wouldn't call him an A-level prospect.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby DelPen on Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:32 am

Is Addison better than Morrow, Harrington and Pouliot? All were at or near the top of our defensive depth and all have been busts as high level players. Is he even going to be a Goligiski? Way too early to tell which way he goes.

But we have very little depth again in juniors or Europe. Joseph was a good return, Alamari could be decent and that’s what we need more than to 4.

College is a different story. Clayton Phillips, Ryan Jones and William Reilly are all seniors this year, Reilly is having a very good season at RPI and looks to be in the mood of Marino so maybe the team is high on him as that RD who is already closer to the NHL because he’s 22 instead of 19 like Addison.

I’m not going to even worry about the what if game with Addison, if he ends up being really good for Minnesota great. But we have a good shot this year and it will only get better if we can get guys back healthy. By all means Zucker is the type of guy in and off the ice this team needs.

If Kahun is back tonight, I like this lineup:

Zucker-Sid-Simon
Kahun-Malkin-Rust
McCann-Lafferty-Hornqvist
Tanev-Blueger-ZAR

We actually have 4 lines instead of a couple WBS players and Galchenyuk getting less than 5 minutes a game.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Wyopen on Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:49 am

What concerns me the most, is Zucker’s personal situation. As FLPF pointed out there is a custody issue with his wife’s daughter that doesn’t allow them to leave Minnesota. Also he has a charity that he’s very active in and considers Minnesota home. This kind of stuff can play on a persons mind and serve as a distraction. People are going to say Cullen did it, but at least he could bring his family to Pittsburgh. I hope I’m wrong on Zucker.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:53 am

Wyopen wrote:What concerns me the most, is Zucker’s personal situation. As FLPF pointed out there is a custody issue with his wife’s daughter that doesn’t allow them to leave Minnesota. Also he has a charity that he’s very active in and considers Minnesota home. This kind of stuff can play on a persons mind and serve as a distraction. People are going to say Cullen did it, but at least he could bring his family to Pittsburgh. I hope I’m wrong on Zucker.



I don't think it is any of our positions to wonder "what if" in regards to Zucker. The guy literally just got traded to Pittsburgh less than 12 hours ago. Mike Russo interviewed him last night after trade information came out and he asked him this very same question. Zucker responded how I'd expect him too. The charity will still go on and Minnesota will always be home. That is an okay thing to say. He doesn't have to move his family to Pittsburgh. Def. won't do it this year at least, the kids are still in school, no point to pull them out. I think sometimes people forget these guys get paid the big bucks and a downside is sometimes you don't get to stay where you are. I'm sure his wife and family are aware of that and I'm sure it has been discussed before. The guy was in rumors since early last year, I'm sure a part of him saw it coming. For him the only thing he needs to focus on is playing wing on Crosby's left side and helping the team. All the personal things will be taken care of through the team or other means.

I understand the side of will he miss being at home and being in the kids lives yes of course he is a dad and human. He also though knows he is a professional hockey player and has a responsibility so he can earn his contract. Trust me if he didn't want to leave Minnesota he would've implemented a NTC, it is why those exist. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Zucker started his charity work in Pittsburgh as an extension of it either.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby scpensfan on Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:13 am

thehockeyguru wrote:In the end the Pens traded Kessel, 2020 1st, 2021 4th, and Calen Addison for Zucker and Pierre-Olivier Joseph.

Even if Addison and Joseph wash Kessel a 1st and 4th for Zucker doesn't look that good on paper.


We're talking about 2020 Phil Kessel, right? The guy with four even-strength goals and 33 points in 58 games? That Phil Kessel?

I *love* Phil and what he did for the Pens. But he is done as an impact player.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:44 am

I can't say I don't like this trade as I see this purely as a Jake replacement until the offseason. We need that top line winger and you have to pay for it. I think Sully is going to have a real battle on his hands trying to find the ice time for the 3rd and 4th lines. The Bleuger line has become essential. They possess, they score, they check. We're one C short of having a wicked 4 lines.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:48 am

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I can't say I don't like this trade as I see this purely as a Jake replacement until the offseason. We need that top line winger and you have to pay for it. I think Sully is going to have a real battle on his hands trying to find the ice time for the 3rd and 4th lines. The Bleuger line has become essential. They possess, they score, they check. We're one C short of having a wicked 4 lines.



This is why I think GMJR still gets one more winger. With Bjustad being this HUGE where the H are you and I personally don't think he is coming back this season. You don't start skating and than stop doing it completely unless something went wrong in rehab. If we can get another top 9 forward it allows us to shift MCann to 3rd line center where I think he fits best anyways, so then you'd rock this:

Zucker - Sid - Simon
Kahun - Malkin - Rust
Trade (say Toffoli/Tatar/Duclair?) - MCann - Horny
ZAR - Teddy - Tanev

Dumo - Letang
Schultz - Marino
Petterson - Johnson
Weeds/Rikkola (Could see Rikkola being moved to MTL for either depth forward or upgraded D that costs more)

Jarry/Murray
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby GenoSidStaalsy on Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:53 am

Bottom line we have Sid and Geno (and dare I say Letang) close to their prime for 2-3 years max most likely. We have to do what we have to do to win now. At such time as Addison or the 1st become relevant, we will likely be starting over from scratch anyway as we don't really have any other core championship level players to build around. For the next 2-3 years I want the best team possible on the ice to give Sid and Geno the chance at one more cup. Can worry about the future when we get there - but I really don't think anything we gave up yesterday is going to be the difference between winning and losing a cup while Sid and Geno are still elite players.
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:53 pm

Sullivan says Zucker is scheduled to arrive in town Tuesday afternoon, and is expected to play with Crosby to start.

I think Zucker needs to get the police escort to the arena, arrive right before the game starts, and come out onto the ice on an ATV with Iceburgh as he heads to the lockerroom. :lol:
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby pens_CT on Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:56 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Sullivan says Zucker is scheduled to arrive in town Tuesday afternoon, and is expected to play with Crosby to start.

I think Zucker needs to get the police escort to the arena, arrive right before the game starts, and come out onto the ice on an ATV with Iceburgh as he heads to the lockerroom. :lol:


Didn't McCann and Bjugstad get the police escort treatment, and arrived on the bench just as the game was starting?
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Re: Bobby Mac reporting trade

Postby ville5 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:07 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:Not a huge fan of Zucker but the price is definitely not as steep as being implied here. Great to get AG off the books, and like it’s been suggested they can potentially recoup the pick this summer.

Addison was nothing more than potential, and if he was a forward I may feel differently, considering what how dire that situation is.

Hoping he slots right in and his personal issues are not a problem.

Go Pens!

The best thing about the move is GMJR didn't give up on the season.
He's going for it. Which, good or bad, you gotta love as a fan. The Pens might lose this trade in the end, but we're trying to win the championship. A lot of gms wouldn't have the cajones to make this move.
And the trade only adds less than $200k to our payroll.:thumb:
I expect more moves.
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