6/21 NHL Draft discussion

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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby brwi on Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:45 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:These picks and keeping the status quo going for another season will doom this team. I'm willing to predict Sullivan gets fired sometime in January because hes lost this team. JR might not be too far behind him.

Pretty much agree except I think it will be December at the latest when Sullivan is fired. The largely same stale group will pick up right from where they were a year ago and have mediocre results that lead to the demise of Sullivan since making real changes in personnel wouldn't/couldn't be done. GMJR goes through the season and then really retires.

Not seeing too much to be optimistic about right now.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Ohio_Pens_fan on Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:45 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Enjoy all the Penguins trades this week. I'm sure they are coming, because I will be out of the country starting tomorrow afternoon, with little to no access to the internet.

Thanks for the warning. Otherwise I’d be wondering why you weren’t giving us your take on things. Safe trip.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby ville5 on Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:20 pm

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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby penny lane on Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:01 am

Ohio_Pens_fan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Enjoy all the Penguins trades this week. I'm sure they are coming, because I will be out of the country starting tomorrow afternoon, with little to no access to the internet.

Thanks for the warning. Otherwise I’d be wondering why you weren’t giving us your take on things. Safe trip.


Enjoy your vacation, have fun, but be safe.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby FallenHero96 on Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:57 am

ville5 wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/MeghanMHall/status/1142424275476987911


What is wrong with these kids today, horrible.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:54 am

penny lane wrote:
Ohio_Pens_fan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Enjoy all the Penguins trades this week. I'm sure they are coming, because I will be out of the country starting tomorrow afternoon, with little to no access to the internet.

Thanks for the warning. Otherwise I’d be wondering why you weren’t giving us your take on things. Safe trip.


Enjoy your vacation, have fun, but be safe.

Thanks penny and OPF.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Sams_Dog on Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:22 pm

Four years ago I said that the Penguins organization was probably going to look back and really regret the Jim Rutherford era. Then they won back-to-back Cups so I thought, "Well, I was wrong on that one." Now I think he'll be remembered for two things: winning back-to-back Cups, and the huge hole he put the Penguins in by doing it. How you feel about him will depend on how you view the glass - half empty or half full. It's a little like the way Howard Baldwin is remembered. We got a ring and contended for about five years but there was a lot to pay for after he left.

Three Cups in the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fleury era is pretty great. I am more than happy with that if that's is all they get. Most franchises get much less. Ask Philly, the NYR, Tampa Bay, San Jose, Toronto...etc. It's looking like it will be a bit of a stretch for the Pens to truly contend for the Cup again until the window really closes in 3-5 years. Maybe they'll surprise but I'm not counting on it by the way things look.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby theblackarts on Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:07 pm

Sams_Dog wrote:Four years ago I said that the Penguins organization was probably going to look back and really regret the Jim Rutherford era. Then they won back-to-back Cups so I thought, "Well, I was wrong on that one." Now I think he'll be remembered for two things: winning back-to-back Cups, and the huge hole he put the Penguins in by doing it. How you feel about him will depend on how you view the glass - half empty or half full. It's a little like the way Howard Baldwin is remembered. We got a ring and contended for about five years but there was a lot to pay for after he left.

Three Cups in the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fleury era is pretty great. I am more than happy with that if that's is all they get. Most franchises get much less. Ask Philly, the NYR, Tampa Bay, San Jose, Toronto...etc. It's looking like it will be a bit of a stretch for the Pens to truly contend for the Cup again until the window really closes in 3-5 years. Maybe they'll surprise but I'm not counting on it by the way things look.


I don't know if this is a realistic criticism. Winning back to back cups and challenging for more requires being in "win now" mode 24/7, during the salary cap era. I can't really imagine that it's possible to make moves to spark the team to win every year and not end up hamstrung eventually. The law of averages is going to catch up.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Jim on Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:19 pm

Yeah, it really sucks how the Pens lose more than they win and how they haven't been in the playoffs for a while.

Teams tend to hang good stretch for a number of seasons, then a poor stretch for a number of seasons, then good, then poor, then good. That is literally how this works. If you expect "your" team to only do good... then you better never hitch your horse to one wagon.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby interstorm on Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:26 pm

I agree - if winning 2 cups and being a strong contender for a few other years causes a crash and burn for some time (even an equal length of time) then I'd be alright with it. We've been so spoiled with talent and success for so long I think many fans lose sight of reality. The good thing is that as long as Lemieux remains part owner then I think we'll have a first class organization that players will want to be part of. When the Pens fall from the top (which might be this year, might not. Might have even happened already) we'll take our lumps but we will be back. True fans will stick with them the whole way.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby no name on Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:55 am

The one thing I can see is GMJR is bringing in younger players in every move. Sure the core is getting older but the talent around that core is getting younger. He even tried to make it younger with the Zucker trade. So instead of riding that core into the ground he is reshaping it little by little.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby andrewpappas on Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:33 am

Sams_Dog wrote:Four years ago I said that the Penguins organization was probably going to look back and really regret the Jim Rutherford era. Then they won back-to-back Cups so I thought, "Well, I was wrong on that one." Now I think he'll be remembered for two things: winning back-to-back Cups, and the huge hole he put the Penguins in by doing it. How you feel about him will depend on how you view the glass - half empty or half full. It's a little like the way Howard Baldwin is remembered. We got a ring and contended for about five years but there was a lot to pay for after he left.

Three Cups in the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fleury era is pretty great. I am more than happy with that if that's is all they get. Most franchises get much less. Ask Philly, the NYR, Tampa Bay, San Jose, Toronto...etc. It's looking like it will be a bit of a stretch for the Pens to truly contend for the Cup again until the window really closes in 3-5 years. Maybe they'll surprise but I'm not counting on it by the way things look.


I am in the exact agreement with you. This is why this off-season is critical for the now and next 3-5 years. Even though there on some on this board that do not like the head coach, I think the Pens can win with him. Let's not forget how bad Rutherford mangled the last coaching search. I was actually embarrassed for the organization the last time he conducted the search. He had to "reach" and hire a Junior Hockey coach. This was simply laughable. My bigger pet peeve is his openness with the media. He just can't wait to start yapping. I really would hope upper management would put a muzzle on him.

These next few week will be very interesting
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby KG on Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:52 am

no name wrote:The one thing I can see is GMJR is bringing in younger players in every move. Sure the core is getting older but the talent around that core is getting younger. He even tried to make it younger with the Zucker trade. So instead of riding that core into the ground he is reshaping it little by little.


Agreed. He is trying to extend the window by adding some good young talent via trades. For all of the bashing JR gets, he has done a very good job overall with a mandate to win now.

With that win now approach he easily could just keep trying to bring in aging veterans, but he has brought in some youth and energy.

No matter what he does, the team has to get that hunger back. Hence the rumors of moving a core player.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby ville5 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:02 am

Anyone have an Athletic subscription? Cory Pronman grades all the teams' drafts. Curious what he had to say about the Pens.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Southern Fan on Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:18 am

We need two gm’s. The Jim Rutherford GM from November to April who seems to win most in season trades with other gm’s.

Then we need another GM who deals with agents in free agency and contract extensions and selects future prospects. GMJR does not have a stellar track record from June through October.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby penny lane on Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:58 am

ville5 wrote:Anyone have an Athletic subscription? Cory Pronman grades all the teams' drafts. Curious what he had to say about the Pens.



Pens- C. Adding any talent to a thin system is a big deal.

Notes on Poulin-Good hands in small spaces. Very smart with high end vision. Good shot and strong on the puck.
This guy says his skating is average.

Legare- power play weapon. Has one of the best shots in this draft. Big body forward. Plays a heavy game.
If skating was better- a higher pick in the draft.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby ville5 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:07 pm

penny lane wrote:
ville5 wrote:Anyone have an Athletic subscription? Cory Pronman grades all the teams' drafts. Curious what he had to say about the Pens.


Pens- C. Adding any talent to a thin system is a big deal.

Notes on Poulin-Good hands in small spaces. Very smart with high end vision. Good shot and strong on the puck.
This guy says his skating is average.

Legare- power play weapon. Has one of the best shots in this draft. Big body forward. Plays a heavy game.
If skating was better- a higher pick in the draft.

thank you diane. Let's hope they can continue to evolve their games and make the big time.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby no name on Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:07 pm

I was always about picking the best available guy no matter if your stock piled at that position. Its about the asset unless you are picking in the top 5 and all those guys are NHL ready. Hell look at Jake Guentzel I laughed at that pick and thought he is so skinny he will never become a NHLer.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Big Easy Pens Fan on Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:29 pm

There is one thing about (almost) any NHL prospect you can't judge. The size of a guy's desire. Guentzel provides that in spades.

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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby penny lane on Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:55 pm

Brian Metzer will host Mark Madden's show today.
Draft talk and looking at the metro division.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Cow_Master66 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:29 pm

Sams_Dog wrote:Four years ago I said that the Penguins organization was probably going to look back and really regret the Jim Rutherford era. Then they won back-to-back Cups so I thought, "Well, I was wrong on that one." Now I think he'll be remembered for two things: winning back-to-back Cups, and the huge hole he put the Penguins in by doing it. How you feel about him will depend on how you view the glass - half empty or half full. It's a little like the way Howard Baldwin is remembered. We got a ring and contended for about five years but there was a lot to pay for after he left.

Three Cups in the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fleury era is pretty great. I am more than happy with that if that's is all they get. Most franchises get much less. Ask Philly, the NYR, Tampa Bay, San Jose, Toronto...etc. It's looking like it will be a bit of a stretch for the Pens to truly contend for the Cup again until the window really closes in 3-5 years. Maybe they'll surprise but I'm not counting on it by the way things look.


The VAST majority will look at the JR era as a win, and anyone that doesn't is just blind to the business side of things.

The only realistic way for this organization to avoid the inevitable down years is to start the rebuild NOW. That means Malkin, Letang, Kessell, Guentz, Horny, Shultz, Murray get moved this year. Since that's not going to happen as the fanbase would have kittens, as would the Captain, they will tread water and hopefully catch lightning in a bottle over the next 3-4 years and get back to the finals. If they trade the aforementioned players, and win most of the deals, they could be primed for another Stanley Cup window in 3-4 years. If they try to go at it with these guys, they are most likely going to trade off some other young assets and picks as they have been, and lengthen the rebuild significantly.

Quite frankly, I see the arguments on both sides and I'm fine either way. I think this year will be the true decision maker on what direction they need to go. Quite frankly, the most important role GMJR may serve over the next 2 seasons could be as the ax man. He's on his way to retirement, so he could play the bad guy in breaking up the core once and for all.... :scared:
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Antonio on Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:06 pm

Considering the overwhelming majority of NHL franchises have never won a single cup in decades of play, then two cups back-to-back has to be considered an enormous victory, regardless of the medium term ramifications afterwards. Most fanbases who've never ever had a single win, would gladly trade one win for a guaranteed 10 straight years of mediocrity afterwards. People are a little spoiled. Rutherford has made some terrible mistakes and some really questionable decisions, but arguing that his tenure isn't an overwhelming success overall is absurd.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby murphydump55 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:34 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:
Sams_Dog wrote:Four years ago I said that the Penguins organization was probably going to look back and really regret the Jim Rutherford era. Then they won back-to-back Cups so I thought, "Well, I was wrong on that one." Now I think he'll be remembered for two things: winning back-to-back Cups, and the huge hole he put the Penguins in by doing it. How you feel about him will depend on how you view the glass - half empty or half full. It's a little like the way Howard Baldwin is remembered. We got a ring and contended for about five years but there was a lot to pay for after he left.

Three Cups in the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fleury era is pretty great. I am more than happy with that if that's is all they get. Most franchises get much less. Ask Philly, the NYR, Tampa Bay, San Jose, Toronto...etc. It's looking like it will be a bit of a stretch for the Pens to truly contend for the Cup again until the window really closes in 3-5 years. Maybe they'll surprise but I'm not counting on it by the way things look.


The VAST majority will look at the JR era as a win, and anyone that doesn't is just blind to the business side of things.

The only realistic way for this organization to avoid the inevitable down years is to start the rebuild NOW. That means Malkin, Letang, Kessell, Guentz, Horny, Shultz, Murray get moved this year. Since that's not going to happen as the fanbase would have kittens, as would the Captain, they will tread water and hopefully catch lightning in a bottle over the next 3-4 years and get back to the finals. If they trade the aforementioned players, and win most of the deals, they could be primed for another Stanley Cup window in 3-4 years. If they try to go at it with these guys, they are most likely going to trade off some other young assets and picks as they have been, and lengthen the rebuild significantly.

Quite frankly, I see the arguments on both sides and I'm fine either way. I think this year will be the true decision maker on what direction they need to go. Quite frankly, the most important role GMJR may serve over the next 2 seasons could be as the ax man. He's on his way to retirement, so he could play the bad guy in breaking up the core once and for all.... :scared:


Kessel. Schultz.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:59 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
Cow_Master66 wrote:
Sams_Dog wrote:Four years ago I said that the Penguins organization was probably going to look back and really regret the Jim Rutherford era. Then they won back-to-back Cups so I thought, "Well, I was wrong on that one." Now I think he'll be remembered for two things: winning back-to-back Cups, and the huge hole he put the Penguins in by doing it. How you feel about him will depend on how you view the glass - half empty or half full. It's a little like the way Howard Baldwin is remembered. We got a ring and contended for about five years but there was a lot to pay for after he left.

Three Cups in the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fleury era is pretty great. I am more than happy with that if that's is all they get. Most franchises get much less. Ask Philly, the NYR, Tampa Bay, San Jose, Toronto...etc. It's looking like it will be a bit of a stretch for the Pens to truly contend for the Cup again until the window really closes in 3-5 years. Maybe they'll surprise but I'm not counting on it by the way things look.


The VAST majority will look at the JR era as a win, and anyone that doesn't is just blind to the business side of things.

The only realistic way for this organization to avoid the inevitable down years is to start the rebuild NOW. That means Malkin, Letang, Kessell, Guentz, Horny, Shultz, Murray get moved this year. Since that's not going to happen as the fanbase would have kittens, as would the Captain, they will tread water and hopefully catch lightning in a bottle over the next 3-4 years and get back to the finals. If they trade the aforementioned players, and win most of the deals, they could be primed for another Stanley Cup window in 3-4 years. If they try to go at it with these guys, they are most likely going to trade off some other young assets and picks as they have been, and lengthen the rebuild significantly.

Quite frankly, I see the arguments on both sides and I'm fine either way. I think this year will be the true decision maker on what direction they need to go. Quite frankly, the most important role GMJR may serve over the next 2 seasons could be as the ax man. He's on his way to retirement, so he could play the bad guy in breaking up the core once and for all.... :scared:


Kessel. Schultz.


I don't think this is an easy problem by any stretch, but they can bridge the gap between Crosby/Malkin era and the next one without having Rico Fata as the star player. Adding Pettersson and McCann to Jake is a nice start but they need to do more.

If they can move Kessel, Hornqvist, Rust, Letang or Schultz for under 25 year old assets you might end up with a younger roster that can get into their prime as Sid/Geno get older. People like to bring up the Red Wings and for good reason. They were able to transition from Yzerman and Federov to Datsyuk and Zetterberg. They only won one cup with the new group, but I think it's because they stopped retooling and got old.

They went and got an over the hill Bertuzzi, Rafalski, and Modano, kept signing Cleary and Draper, etc. They could have surrounded Zetterberg Kronwall, Datsyuk with younger guys and extended their window. They might have missed the playoffs or not gone far as they retooled, but they might have have won another cup or two.

I think the Penguins are way ahead of the Zetterberg group as it is and anymore cups is really a blessing at this point, but that doesn't mean the expectations should be lowered because they have 3 cups in this era. They shouldn't fall in the same trap the Red Wings did by keeping Kessel, Hornqvist, Letang, etc. for so long they get nothing of value back. Don't go signing Simmonds when his numbers are trending downward and plays a game that will diminish his skills quickly. Not saying to go from an average age of 29 to 24, but certainly they can get younger in some spots. Might not score as much, but they might not give up as many goals either.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby GSdrums87 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:37 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:
Sams_Dog wrote:Four years ago I said that the Penguins organization was probably going to look back and really regret the Jim Rutherford era. Then they won back-to-back Cups so I thought, "Well, I was wrong on that one." Now I think he'll be remembered for two things: winning back-to-back Cups, and the huge hole he put the Penguins in by doing it. How you feel about him will depend on how you view the glass - half empty or half full. It's a little like the way Howard Baldwin is remembered. We got a ring and contended for about five years but there was a lot to pay for after he left.

Three Cups in the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fleury era is pretty great. I am more than happy with that if that's is all they get. Most franchises get much less. Ask Philly, the NYR, Tampa Bay, San Jose, Toronto...etc. It's looking like it will be a bit of a stretch for the Pens to truly contend for the Cup again until the window really closes in 3-5 years. Maybe they'll surprise but I'm not counting on it by the way things look.


The VAST majority will look at the JR era as a win, and anyone that doesn't is just blind to the business side of things.

The only realistic way for this organization to avoid the inevitable down years is to start the rebuild NOW. That means Malkin, Letang, Kessell, Guentz, Horny, Shultz, Murray get moved this year. Since that's not going to happen as the fanbase would have kittens, as would the Captain, they will tread water and hopefully catch lightning in a bottle over the next 3-4 years and get back to the finals. If they trade the aforementioned players, and win most of the deals, they could be primed for another Stanley Cup window in 3-4 years. If they try to go at it with these guys, they are most likely going to trade off some other young assets and picks as they have been, and lengthen the rebuild significantly.

Quite frankly, I see the arguments on both sides and I'm fine either way. I think this year will be the true decision maker on what direction they need to go. Quite frankly, the most important role GMJR may serve over the next 2 seasons could be as the ax man. He's on his way to retirement, so he could play the bad guy in breaking up the core once and for all.... :scared:

Your rebuild includes trading Guentzel and Murray? Are you high?
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