6/21 NHL Draft discussion

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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Jim on Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:16 am

Antonio wrote:Considering the overwhelming majority of NHL franchises have never won a single cup in decades of play, then two cups back-to-back has to be considered an enormous victory, regardless of the medium term ramifications afterwards. Most fanbases who've never ever had a single win, would gladly trade one win for a guaranteed 10 straight years of mediocrity afterwards. People are a little spoiled. Rutherford has made some terrible mistakes and some really questionable decisions, but arguing that his tenure isn't an overwhelming success overall is absurd.


:thumb:

If you could get some writer somewhere to post that them maybe people would know what to think... :pop:
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Steve on Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:46 am

Jim wrote:
Antonio wrote:Considering the overwhelming majority of NHL franchises have never won a single cup in decades of play, then two cups back-to-back has to be considered an enormous victory, regardless of the medium term ramifications afterwards. Most fanbases who've never ever had a single win, would gladly trade one win for a guaranteed 10 straight years of mediocrity afterwards. People are a little spoiled. Rutherford has made some terrible mistakes and some really questionable decisions, but arguing that his tenure isn't an overwhelming success overall is absurd.


:thumb:

If you could get some writer somewhere to post that them maybe people would know what to think... :pop:


:thumb: :thumb:

Regarding GMJR, It's similar to what happened in Carolina right? He won a cup there - but he also had that horrible Staal trade and that even worse Semin contract, which was awful the second it was signed - no hindsight required there. For the Staal trade, he only wanted to play for one team so who was GMJR bidding against? (but thank you for Brian Dumoulin and eventually Bonino) or he could have waited a year and signed Staal as a FA giving up nothing - that could have at least been used as leverage.

GMJR won two cups here and I don't know if any of the mistakes were as bad as the examples above; I definitely consider it a success here. I also don't believe the window has closed for another cup run, but we'll see how JR does there as obviously work needs to be done.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Daniel on Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:45 am

Steve wrote:
Jim wrote:
Antonio wrote:Considering the overwhelming majority of NHL franchises have never won a single cup in decades of play, then two cups back-to-back has to be considered an enormous victory, regardless of the medium term ramifications afterwards. Most fanbases who've never ever had a single win, would gladly trade one win for a guaranteed 10 straight years of mediocrity afterwards. People are a little spoiled. Rutherford has made some terrible mistakes and some really questionable decisions, but arguing that his tenure isn't an overwhelming success overall is absurd.


:thumb:

If you could get some writer somewhere to post that them maybe people would know what to think... :pop:


:thumb: :thumb:

Regarding GMJR, It's similar to what happened in Carolina right? He won a cup there - but he also had that horrible Staal trade and that even worse Semin contract, which was awful the second it was signed - no hindsight required there. For the Staal trade, he only wanted to play for one team so who was GMJR bidding against? (but thank you for Brian Dumoulin and eventually Bonino) or he could have waited a year and signed Staal as a FA giving up nothing - that could have at least been used as leverage.

GMJR won two cups here and I don't know if any of the mistakes were as bad as the examples above; I definitely consider it a success here. I also don't believe the window has closed for another cup run, but we'll see how JR does there as obviously work needs to be done.


I think if Sid/Geno/maybe Letang are the only core over 30 the window can last 6-8 more years. If they keep adding over 30 vets and don't help the farm system, the window might be 3-4 years.

I will give JR a lot of credit for McCann and Pettersson and think both have the ability to join Jake and Murray as next gen core. Problem is, the franchise has too much salary cap space on diminishing assets.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Jim on Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:30 am

Steve wrote:
Jim wrote:
Antonio wrote:Considering the overwhelming majority of NHL franchises have never won a single cup in decades of play, then two cups back-to-back has to be considered an enormous victory, regardless of the medium term ramifications afterwards. Most fanbases who've never ever had a single win, would gladly trade one win for a guaranteed 10 straight years of mediocrity afterwards. People are a little spoiled. Rutherford has made some terrible mistakes and some really questionable decisions, but arguing that his tenure isn't an overwhelming success overall is absurd.


:thumb:

If you could get some writer somewhere to post that them maybe people would know what to think... :pop:


:thumb: :thumb:

Regarding GMJR, It's similar to what happened in Carolina right? He won a cup there - but he also had that horrible Staal trade and that even worse Semin contract, which was awful the second it was signed - no hindsight required there. For the Staal trade, he only wanted to play for one team so who was GMJR bidding against? (but thank you for Brian Dumoulin and eventually Bonino) or he could have waited a year and signed Staal as a FA giving up nothing - that could have at least been used as leverage.

GMJR won two cups here and I don't know if any of the mistakes were as bad as the examples above; I definitely consider it a success here. I also don't believe the window has closed for another cup run, but we'll see how JR does there as obviously work needs to be done.


I don't have much issue with the Staal trade. Yeah, even at the time I thought that the Pens won that trade but Rutherford had other reasons to making the trade and for thinking that Staal would be worth while. Had he not made the trade would Carolina have been better? Maybe, maybe not. Semin on the other hand... I've said that I like Rutherford's trading record but his FA signing record is HORRIBLE!!!
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby interstorm on Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:42 am

For Staal he could have waited a year and potentially Jordan could have changed him mind and decided to stay in Pittsburgh. When an opportunity presents itself, gotta move if you like the potential.

Trouba brought back a 1st rounder for the Jets this year and it seems like he was intent on playing in New York (either now or next year signing as a free agent). Somewhat of a comparable there.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Cow_Master66 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:58 pm

GSdrums87 wrote:
Cow_Master66 wrote:
Sams_Dog wrote:Four years ago I said that the Penguins organization was probably going to look back and really regret the Jim Rutherford era. Then they won back-to-back Cups so I thought, "Well, I was wrong on that one." Now I think he'll be remembered for two things: winning back-to-back Cups, and the huge hole he put the Penguins in by doing it. How you feel about him will depend on how you view the glass - half empty or half full. It's a little like the way Howard Baldwin is remembered. We got a ring and contended for about five years but there was a lot to pay for after he left.

Three Cups in the Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fleury era is pretty great. I am more than happy with that if that's is all they get. Most franchises get much less. Ask Philly, the NYR, Tampa Bay, San Jose, Toronto...etc. It's looking like it will be a bit of a stretch for the Pens to truly contend for the Cup again until the window really closes in 3-5 years. Maybe they'll surprise but I'm not counting on it by the way things look.


The VAST majority will look at the JR era as a win, and anyone that doesn't is just blind to the business side of things.

The only realistic way for this organization to avoid the inevitable down years is to start the rebuild NOW. That means Malkin, Letang, Kessell, Guentz, Horny, Shultz, Murray get moved this year. Since that's not going to happen as the fanbase would have kittens, as would the Captain, they will tread water and hopefully catch lightning in a bottle over the next 3-4 years and get back to the finals. If they trade the aforementioned players, and win most of the deals, they could be primed for another Stanley Cup window in 3-4 years. If they try to go at it with these guys, they are most likely going to trade off some other young assets and picks as they have been, and lengthen the rebuild significantly.

Quite frankly, I see the arguments on both sides and I'm fine either way. I think this year will be the true decision maker on what direction they need to go. Quite frankly, the most important role GMJR may serve over the next 2 seasons could be as the ax man. He's on his way to retirement, so he could play the bad guy in breaking up the core once and for all.... :scared:

Your rebuild includes trading Guentzel and Murray? Are you high?


Couple comments....

#1) I am often high when I post here....I just assumed everyone else is??
#1a) That's not the reason for my spelling errors, I just get a chuckle when that one dude corrects everything I tie-p

#2) I do think if you are going to blow it up, you should really blow it up. If you're going to rebuild, you need to trade the guys that will give you the best return, and it's not the old dudes, it's the new one's that hurt to get rid of. As I type this, I hate the thought of getting rid of Guentz, but in all honesty, there's not use for a guy like him if we plan to miss the playoffs for a 2-3 year stretch.

#3) I'm not saying #2 is the way to go right now, but I do think this season coming up will be when the decision will need to be made. If this team goes the route of trying to patch together a contender around the aging core and continues to have disappointing playoff exits (i.e. < finals), then I'm fine with that....I get it, this group has been loyal and upstanding citizens and I'm down with what may happen (no more cups, 10 years before true contention). On the flip side, if this team wants to draw a line in the sand at the next disappointing exit and trade off all their best assets for a quick rebuild, I'll happily say adios to all on that list and hope for better days ahead (no more cups with the core, 3 years before true contention). I guess my overall point earlier was that JR is in a unique position in terms of GMs, that he can be the "bad guy" and disband the core, because he's riding off into the sunset of life....

If none of that makes sense, it's because I'm high. And drunk....Been a long day
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby DelPen on Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:15 am

you Don’t blow a team up when you still have two of the best players in the world on your roster. But you can’t be wasting money on bad contracts and make cap crushing deals if you want to make a competitive team around them.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby Mythodikal on Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:48 am

[quote="DelPen"]you Don’t blow a team up when you still have two of the best players in the world on your roster. But you can’t be wasting money on bad contracts and make cap crushing deals if you want to make a competitive team around them.[/quote]

^^^ This!!!

Add this to another earlier comment about GMJR making some pretty good in season trades, but his off season moves are mostly terrible (other than Kessel). Even getting the coach for back to back Stanley Cups happened mid season!

The problem I have is the argument that all of these heroes that won back to back cups have now become the crap pile because of two non Stanley Cup seasons. It is easy to blame the stars on the team, it is easy to blame the skilled players for trying to make a skilled play and it back fires. What about the player that has no offensive skill and continuously makes the safe play and still gets lit up?

The Pens signed Matt Hunwick, he was useless. The next off season they trade him to get his cap hit off the books, they incorporate Connor Sheary in the trade, Connor was no hero, but he was very serviceable, streaky, but could play up and down the line up. 2 players off the books, a nice clearing of cap space. The problem is that that cap space was used for Jack Johnson, if you still don't understand how bad a signing this was then let's just agree that none of our conversations are going to go well. Also Matt Cullen was signed for another year. Signed because even though his numbers turned to garbage in Minnesota it didn't matter because he was the ultimate locker room presence. Somehow he was unable to fix the room this year, so why was he here?

As far as the in season trades this past year, I am somewhat up in the air. Hind sight is one thing and I don't want to breach that. When Hagelin was traded I was ok with it, I really thought Pearson could bounce back. What happened to Brassard, I don't know, but that experiment definitely needed to come to an end. Bjugstad is definitely a lot of potential, but at this point you can probably expect he is what he is. McCann seems like a great pick up, it will be interesting to see if he sticks with Crosby and Guentzel, and is that the best place for him depth wise? We'll see...

Turning Pearson into Gudbranson is another move for grit. I will admit I was surprised by how well the Petterson / Gudbranson pairing did for the most part. Unfortunately this pairing puts JJ with Schultz who became useless when anchored with that pairing. Now you have over 7 million tied up in JJ and EG, neither of which drive play.

Pittsburgh is extremely fortunate that they have Crosby at 8.7, Malkin at 9.something, Kessel at 6.something, Letang at 7.8, Murray at 4 or 5 something, they have a lot of really good contracts. They also have a lot of terrible contracts. You can't afford JJ and EG at over 7 combined, or Hornqvist at over 6 when he is now playing on the 3rd or 4th line and barely producing on the power play.

I am grateful for the last 10+ years in which I've considered this team I love a contender most years. I also know that window is closing quick. Blowing it up is not likely to receive returns that will win, little own in Crosby's time frame. That's why a lot of us are all over every GMJR decision, it isn't like the time frame of the Shero team failures... this is it, there's a very few years left. Every mistake is further compounded because of this.

That's sports kids!
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby penny lane on Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:33 am

The Final Word and 2 others Retweeted
Chase Williams WPXI
‏Verified account @chasepwilliams
18h18 hours ago

"I'm going to try and make the team right away" -- Penguins 1st Rd Pick Samuel Poulin (@poulin_sam) makes his goals known on Day 1 of development camp https://bit.ly/2X28oRb


You have to love his energy and confidence.
I hope to make it out to Cranberry for a practice or the scrimmage.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby ville5 on Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:24 am

A few tournament observations from Ms. Haase @ dkpghsports:
Here are some takeaways from the tournament:


• Forward Nathan Legare's shot earned a lotof praise when he was drafted, and it still feels like it was understated. He's got a great release, and it's accurate:

"I think (three-on-three) was good for me," Legare said. "When I have space I try to put the puck on the net, and tonight it was successful for me."

• There were some concerns about Legare and Poulin's skating in some pre-draft scouting reports. Based off of these games, there shouldn't be any concerns. Both were able to keep up with the play, seemed to be agile, and had the lower-body strength to be strong on the puck.

"It's a quick game," Poulin said. "Especially three-on-three, there's a lot of ice to cover. If you're slow it's going to beat you. I think I did pretty well in the tournament."

"I think I work on my speed every day," Legare said. "I want to show the scouts that my skating is not that slow. But for sure it is something that I need to improve, and this is what I'm going to do."

Director of player development Scott Young wasn't concerned with either of the top picks' skating.

"I think their skating looks good," Young said. "I read (scouting reports) too, and again, they're 18 years old. Everybody at 18 years old has to pick up their pace a little bit to play in the NHL. Maybe Connor McDavid didn't have to. But there are very few of those. I see that written, and to me, it's not a concern."

Young was also impressed by the overall game of the Penguins' top two picks.

"They're impressive players," he said. "They're very determined, hungry players. They want to score goals. They are big bodies, they're strong. They have pro habits in the way that they practice and the way that they do every drill. Pretty impressive for 18 years old."

• Spooner, a forward and an undrafted free agent invite out of Minnesota State was arguably the star of the tournament after Legare. He's a good skater, and even though he's slightly on the slender side at 6-feet, 174 pounds, he was hard to knock off the puck. He had good vision on the ice, made some great plays, he's physical, and scored a couple of goals. Dejan will have more on Spooner in a separate piece.

• The three-on-three format led to a lot of open ice, and it allowed some of the faster players to shine. One of them was the 5-feet-8, 150-pound forward Trivigno, an undrafted free agent invite from UMass Amherst. At his size he has to be fast, but he seemed especially agile, and scored Team Jagr's first goal of the tournament in the first game.

Trivigno was strong on the puck for a guy of his size. He was also pretty effective at backchecking and singlehandedly broke up a number of the opposing team's chances. He's not a heavy hitter at his size, but he was still throwing the weight he does have around in some checks.

• Young was coaching Team Malkin during the tournament, a team that included forward Jordy Bellerive. He liked what he saw.

"I was coaching Bellerive, and I thought he looked good in the three-on-three," Young said. "He's strong. He's really strong for his size. He's not the biggest guy, but he's really strong on the puck. He has zone time, he makes plays, his head's up, he can shoot the puck really well."

• Emil Larmi isn't the most technically sound goaltender, but he performed well given the high shot volume and a lot of fun to watch. Twice, he came far out of his net to challenge a shooter and cut down the angle. The first time it paid off, the second time he missed his target and Trivigno had to jump in the crease and block a chance. I asked Larmi about those decisions, and he gave a very Larmi-like answer.

"I was bored, so I had to do something," Larmi laughed. "Just kidding."

Larmi tried to score twice. The first time there was a whistle before he was able to get the shot off, and the second attempt went wide in the final seconds of the second game.
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Re: 6/21 NHL Draft discussion

Postby penny lane on Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:20 am

Thank -you! Too hot to get moving for these evening scrimmages.
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