Moving forward

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Moving forward

Postby longtimefan on Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:31 pm

JR has been unfairly criticized at times for a win now approach. Some have suggested he doesn't care about the teams future at his age. The thing is, his actions haven't backed that up. He'll trade future assets for current rewards, but he'd be a fool not to on a team who is in win now mode. But he subtlety has rebuilt this years team with an eye on future seasons.

-He traded 30 year old UFA to be Hagelin for a 26 year old winger with term in Pearson.

-For the 21 year old Sprong, he acquired a 22 year old defenseman in Pettersson.

-He traded 28 year old UFA to be Grant for 24 year old RFA to be Blandisi.

-He traded 26 year old Oleksiak for a 4th round pick.

-He traded 31 year old Brassard and 27 year old Sheahan for 26 year old Bjugstad and 22 year old McCann. The three picks are wild cards, that statistically may produce one middling NHL player. One of the picks was the 4th received for Oleksiak.

He moved out 6 players with an average age of 27.17, for 5 players with an average age of 24.0. Of the six players moved, four are slated to walk at the end of the season. All 5 players received are under team control for multiple seasons moving forward. Personally, I see that as pretty good roster management. Yes, some money will have to be moved out to be cap compliant, but moving Pearson alone should leave enough to re-sign all of the RFA's.

That's not to suggest they'll stand pat in the offseason. Much of that will be predicated on how the team finishes. I could see them moving Kessel if the team makes an early exit this season. I don't see that happening if they win the Cup with Phil as a key component. The team will always evolve, and circumstances will dictate moves going forward. But JR has accumulated enough assets to fill a roster without a ton of work to be done for next season.

Forwards: Crosby, Malkin, McCann, Guentzel, Rust, Bjugstad, Kessel, Hornqvist, Simon, Blueger, ZAR, Pearson, Blandisi. Guys with options remaining in WBS, but making a case to be considered for the big club next season, are Johnson and Angello. Dea deserves at least a mention. He was claimed off of waivers after camp, and people forget he's only 25. I think the DiPauli ship may have sailed. He just hasn't been able to stay healthy enough to get any traction. Still, even if you move Pearson, you've got 12 forwards with no waiver eligibility next season. And I wouldn't be surprised to see them bring Wilson back on a minimum deal.

Defensively, only Ruhwedel is slated to be a UFA. The other 7 are under contract next season. Even though he's going to be a UFA, I could see them attempting to bring Prow back to replace Ruhwedel. Or maybe Chad will be back.

They even have 3 goaltenders on NHL deals next season. They also don't have any real onerous contracts to deal with. Some will say JJ, but that's based on the term. I suspect the cap hit isn't a huge issue around the league. Pearson may be slightly overpaid, but is again movable.

Not everybody is going to make the team, and some likely will be moved out. But that's a choice they have. And they can recoup assets to varying degrees. Which is a lot better than scrambling to replace four UFA's.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Sigwolf on Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:38 pm

While I agree with most of the post... pretty much everything involving Oleksiak needs to be removed. The pick they received was the same one they gave up to acquire him. He was a wash, salary paid for time spent on the team. You can't include the pick received for Oleksiak as a positive in the Florida trade, because they already had that pick before they acquired him. At best it can be viewed as righting a wrong, but I don't think that should apply because I don't think Oleksiak was a bad acquisition. Bottom line is that what JR did with Oleksiak was in no way a net gain for the Pens unless you consider his "time served" as especially advantageous.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby longtimefan on Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:41 pm

Sigwolf wrote:While I agree with most of the post... pretty much everything involving Oleksiak needs to be removed. The pick they received was the same one they gave up to acquire him. He was a wash, salary paid for time spent on the team. You can't include the pick received for Oleksiak as a positive in the Florida trade, because they already had that pick before they acquired him. At best it can be viewed as righting a wrong, but I don't think that should apply because I don't think Oleksiak was a bad acquisition. Bottom line is that what JR did with Oleksiak was in no way a net gain for the Pens unless you consider his "time served" as especially advantageous.


The inclusion of Oleksiak had nothing to do with him as a player. I liked him. It was merely to point out all the players who were moved out, and those who were brought in. In my mind, it gives more clarity to the Florida deal. In effect it was Bjugstad/McCann for Brassard/Sheahan/Oleksiak, plus a #2 and #4. I never considered Jamie a bad acquisition who needed to go. Unfortunately, he was the odd man out.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Mythodikal on Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:30 am

The argument of this post is very interesting to me. To start I don't disagree that some people make arguments against GMJR for his win now approach, and that he is mortgaging the future. The fact of the matter is that Crosby and Malkin are past their prime and every year they can continue to play at an elite level is a blessing. I am totally OK with a win now approach.

The part I find amusing is this post totally based on trading younger, like this makes the team better now and later. Just because someone is an RFA and younger doesn't make them better for the team. Let's take the Bjugstad and McCann deal for Brassard and Sheahan deal. I am fully aware Brassard wasn't working the way we wanted, so this deal is made... sweet! Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!

You mentioned him trading Sprong for a 22 year old D man. Petersson looks like he has some potential. We can't forget that in the summer Hunwick (who was a terrible signing) needed Sheary (a pretty young winger) to be included for a 4th round pick. What did they do with that money? They signed Jack Johnson to a 5 year contract that they weren't even bidding against anyone. Yup, that's looking to the future. Oh and when they needed to clear a D man for their roster, they got rid of the young controlable Oleksiak, because there is no way to do anything about the absurd JJ contract.

When Jason Botteril was with the team he understood they were mortgaging draft picks and prospects. In that time they signed A LOT of college players, haven't seen that much lately... oh and lest we forget the first trade with GMJR on his own was 1ST ROUND PICK for Ryan Reaves!!! And don't give me that "it's a late 1st round pick". I love the argument when people bring up that the Blues drafted Klim Kostin with that pick and GMJR says "well he wasn't even on our radar"... why not?!?!

This team has been so mismanaged for the last 2 years that I actually had a dream 2 nights ago that they traded Letang for a 2nd round pick and a "top prospect" that I couldnt't find on Google. When I woke up I thought it was true.

You can look at the ages of the players traded... look at the contracts of the players signed. Look at the lack of creative signings, look at the poor drafting, have we had any late round wins?

GMJR is screwing uo the now, and is doing no favours for the future.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Jim on Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:14 pm

Mythodikal wrote:The argument of this post is very interesting to me. To start I don't disagree that some people make arguments against GMJR for his win now approach, and that he is mortgaging the future. The fact of the matter is that Crosby and Malkin are past their prime and every year they can continue to play at an elite level is a blessing. I am totally OK with a win now approach.

The part I find amusing is this post totally based on trading younger, like this makes the team better now and later. Just because someone is an RFA and younger doesn't make them better for the team. Let's take the Bjugstad and McCann deal for Brassard and Sheahan deal. I am fully aware Brassard wasn't working the way we wanted, so this deal is made... sweet! Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!

You mentioned him trading Sprong for a 22 year old D man. Petersson looks like he has some potential. We can't forget that in the summer Hunwick (who was a terrible signing) needed Sheary (a pretty young winger) to be included for a 4th round pick. What did they do with that money? They signed Jack Johnson to a 5 year contract that they weren't even bidding against anyone. Yup, that's looking to the future. Oh and when they needed to clear a D man for their roster, they got rid of the young controlable Oleksiak, because there is no way to do anything about the absurd JJ contract.

When Jason Botteril was with the team he understood they were mortgaging draft picks and prospects. In that time they signed A LOT of college players, haven't seen that much lately... oh and lest we forget the first trade with GMJR on his own was 1ST ROUND PICK for Ryan Reaves!!! And don't give me that "it's a late 1st round pick". I love the argument when people bring up that the Blues drafted Klim Kostin with that pick and GMJR says "well he wasn't even on our radar"... why not?!?!

This team has been so mismanaged for the last 2 years that I actually had a dream 2 nights ago that they traded Letang for a 2nd round pick and a "top prospect" that I couldnt't find on Google. When I woke up I thought it was true.

You can look at the ages of the players traded... look at the contracts of the players signed. Look at the lack of creative signings, look at the poor drafting, have we had any late round wins?

GMJR is screwing uo the now, and is doing no favours for the future.


The **** Ryan Reaves thing again. Jesus.

"1ST ROUND PICK for Ryan Reaves" = The argument of stupid people.

Stupid

People

They moved 20 picks and picked the same guy at 51 that they were going to at 31. If you want to cry about them not picking Kostin then you should go after the scouts, not the trade. Or is that too difficult for you to handle as a concept? Trading for Reaves, by name, also came from ownership. Are you able to grasp that?

You say that Botteril understood... is that why a team that had 81 and 78 points before he got there only reached 62 in his first year? He really led that wagon westward! Is that why he traded FOR Hunwick (who was a terrible signing, right?) and Sheary, who is doing nothing allowing for only that lowly 4th instead of a 3rd (as it was based on his performance) Seems more like Rutherford dumped 2 bad contracts while Botteril traded for 2 bad contracts, on purpose.

You are arguing against the Florida trade because even though it improved the team, it made one spot... not really older because Cullen was on that line already... I'm not really sure since you are kind of all over the place.

Then you are made at Rutherford because you had a dream?

Maybe I have a new favorite poster...
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Re: Moving forward

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:30 pm

I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Malkintent on Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:37 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?
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Re: Moving forward

Postby pens_CT on Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:01 pm

Malkintent wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?


This once again reinforces the notion that people who frequent message boards make lousy GMs.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Hot Dog Vendor on Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:21 pm

Malkintent wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?


That's precisely why it makes sense. If you think this team is gonna go anywhere worthwhile with this defensive corps then your head is up your ***.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby pens_CT on Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:35 pm

Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
Malkintent wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?


That's precisely why it makes sense. If you think this team is gonna go anywhere worthwhile with this defensive corps then your head is up your ***.


It's more than who is on the blue line that's the issue with the defense. The theory, I assume it's the theory that you trade Letang for a younger, cheaper, improved version is ludicrous since you likely are not going to find such a player available.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby longtimefan on Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:42 pm

Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
Malkintent wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?


That's precisely why it makes sense. If you think this team is gonna go anywhere worthwhile with this defensive corps then your head is up your ***.


This team's record is exactly the same as it was after 59 games in 2016, and considerably better than better than it was in 2009. Spoiled fan base. MAny who want them to fail so they can beat their chest.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby pens_CT on Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:49 pm

longtimefan wrote:
Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
Malkintent wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?


That's precisely why it makes sense. If you think this team is gonna go anywhere worthwhile with this defensive corps then your head is up your ***.


This team's record is exactly the same as it was after 59 games in 2016, and considerably better than better than it was in 2009. Spoiled fan base. MAny who want them to fail so they can beat their chest.


Those who want them to succeed hope you are correct and we get a another version of those two teams. They are just so damn frustrating to watch, dominating at times, and at other times look like they belong in the draft lottery.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby longtimefan on Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:16 pm

Mythodikal wrote:The argument of this post is very interesting to me. To start I don't disagree that some people make arguments against GMJR for his win now approach, and that he is mortgaging the future. The fact of the matter is that Crosby and Malkin are past their prime and every year they can continue to play at an elite level is a blessing. I am totally OK with a win now approach.

The part I find amusing is this post totally based on trading younger, like this makes the team better now and later. Just because someone is an RFA and younger doesn't make them better for the team. Let's take the Bjugstad and McCann deal for Brassard and Sheahan deal. I am fully aware Brassard wasn't working the way we wanted, so this deal is made... sweet! Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!

You mentioned him trading Sprong for a 22 year old D man. Petersson looks like he has some potential. We can't forget that in the summer Hunwick (who was a terrible signing) needed Sheary (a pretty young winger) to be included for a 4th round pick. What did they do with that money? They signed Jack Johnson to a 5 year contract that they weren't even bidding against anyone. Yup, that's looking to the future. Oh and when they needed to clear a D man for their roster, they got rid of the young controlable Oleksiak, because there is no way to do anything about the absurd JJ contract.

When Jason Botteril was with the team he understood they were mortgaging draft picks and prospects. In that time they signed A LOT of college players, haven't seen that much lately... oh and lest we forget the first trade with GMJR on his own was 1ST ROUND PICK for Ryan Reaves!!! And don't give me that "it's a late 1st round pick". I love the argument when people bring up that the Blues drafted Klim Kostin with that pick and GMJR says "well he wasn't even on our radar"... why not?!?!

This team has been so mismanaged for the last 2 years that I actually had a dream 2 nights ago that they traded Letang for a 2nd round pick and a "top prospect" that I couldnt't find on Google. When I woke up I thought it was true.

You can look at the ages of the players traded... look at the contracts of the players signed. Look at the lack of creative signings, look at the poor drafting, have we had any late round wins?

GMJR is screwing uo the now, and is doing no favours for the future.


I really find the Botterill reference amusing. Thus far, he's not gotten a team to the playoffs. He was also part of the debacle that was the Shero/Bylsma regime's last years. JR is a shoo-in to be enshrined to the HOF. The only GM since expansion to win Cups with two franchises. Jim is right, they traded down 20 spots in that draft to acquire Reaves. The great Klim Kostin? Shouldn't we wait until he plays an NHL game before anointing him? He's players 42 AHL games thus far and has 6 goals and 15 points. No one will argue that Hunwick was a mistake, but I don't expect perfection. He righted it by moving Sheary, who had to go anyway because of his cap hit. And you probably lost one draft round to include Hunwick. Sheary has 9 goals and 23 points in 53 games. He likely would not be able to crack the current lineup.

You should read up on McCann and Bjugstad before criticizing them. McCann dropped to the 24th pick, just like Klostin dropped to 31st. McCann was projected to go 10 to 15. Both players are capable of playing both center and wing. The impetus of the deal was McCann, whose stats are almost identical to those of Chris Tierney at the same age. Tierney was a popular choice on these boards to be the 3C acquisition. The fans are the ones who presumed Bjugstad was the 3C and McCann the 4C. That was never mentioned by the team. McCann was the one they inquired about. Bjugstad got added when Tallon expressed an interest in shedding salary. And both have played better in the short time they've been here than Brassard and Sheahan had possibly at any point this season. The facts are 1st round picks in the 20's are more likely to be 3rd liners than top 6 players.

The bottom line is the team has gotten considerably younger with the deals made, and they have controllabel assets moving forward. Controllable assets can be used in deals down the road. UFA's leave you with nothing except cap space. The dearth of picks is part of the cost of a perrenial contender who has had one pick higher than the 20's since Jordan Staal. And Shero drafted Pouliot. Or is that JR's fault too?

As far as JJ, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. You may not like him, but the team loves him. Which is the only opinion that matters. I appreciate and love his physicality. I also realize he's played out of his natural position all season long. The mainstream media seems to be okay with him. He's struggled. So did Gonchar and MArtin their first seasons. If you were a fan when Gonchar was signed, I expect you were one of those calling for him to be traded. Fans on here are so damn spoiled! They have 3 cups in 10 years. They have 12 straight playoff appearances, and that's twice as many as anybody else. Spoiled rotten fan base.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby LimerickPensFan on Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:25 pm

pens_CT wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
Malkintent wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?


That's precisely why it makes sense. If you think this team is gonna go anywhere worthwhile with this defensive corps then your head is up your ***.


This team's record is exactly the same as it was after 59 games in 2016, and considerably better than better than it was in 2009. Spoiled fan base. MAny who want them to fail so they can beat their chest.


Those who want them to succeed hope you are correct and we get a another version of those two teams. They are just so damn frustrating to watch, dominating at times, and at other times look like they belong in the draft lottery.

Amazing. They sound like almost every other hockey team out there.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby longtimefan on Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:45 pm

It's called parity. The salary cap era is in full swing. With the exception of Tampa, every team in the league has had their ups and downs,
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Re: Moving forward

Postby longtimefan on Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:52 pm

Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
Malkintent wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?


That's precisely why it makes sense. If you think this team is gonna go anywhere worthwhile with this defensive corps then your head is up your ***.


Think about that for a second. If Maata comes back, the top 4 Dmen were on both of the recent Cup teams. Unless you believe Ian Cole and Trevor Daley were the main reasons they won? Letang wasn't even in the mix in 2017. Hainsey was. It may not be the best corps in the league, but to suggest they can't win with these guys has already been proven false in two of the last three seasons.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Mythodikal on Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:49 pm

Jim wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:The argument of this post is very interesting to me. To start I don't disagree that some people make arguments against GMJR for his win now approach, and that he is mortgaging the future. The fact of the matter is that Crosby and Malkin are past their prime and every year they can continue to play at an elite level is a blessing. I am totally OK with a win now approach.

The part I find amusing is this post totally based on trading younger, like this makes the team better now and later. Just because someone is an RFA and younger doesn't make them better for the team. Let's take the Bjugstad and McCann deal for Brassard and Sheahan deal. I am fully aware Brassard wasn't working the way we wanted, so this deal is made... sweet! Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!

You mentioned him trading Sprong for a 22 year old D man. Petersson looks like he has some potential. We can't forget that in the summer Hunwick (who was a terrible signing) needed Sheary (a pretty young winger) to be included for a 4th round pick. What did they do with that money? They signed Jack Johnson to a 5 year contract that they weren't even bidding against anyone. Yup, that's looking to the future. Oh and when they needed to clear a D man for their roster, they got rid of the young controlable Oleksiak, because there is no way to do anything about the absurd JJ contract.

When Jason Botteril was with the team he understood they were mortgaging draft picks and prospects. In that time they signed A LOT of college players, haven't seen that much lately... oh and lest we forget the first trade with GMJR on his own was 1ST ROUND PICK for Ryan Reaves!!! And don't give me that "it's a late 1st round pick". I love the argument when people bring up that the Blues drafted Klim Kostin with that pick and GMJR says "well he wasn't even on our radar"... why not?!?!

This team has been so mismanaged for the last 2 years that I actually had a dream 2 nights ago that they traded Letang for a 2nd round pick and a "top prospect" that I couldnt't find on Google. When I woke up I thought it was true.

You can look at the ages of the players traded... look at the contracts of the players signed. Look at the lack of creative signings, look at the poor drafting, have we had any late round wins?

GMJR is screwing uo the now, and is doing no favours for the future.


The **** Ryan Reaves thing again. Jesus.

"1ST ROUND PICK for Ryan Reaves" = The argument of stupid people.

Stupid

People

They moved 20 picks and picked the same guy at 51 that they were going to at 31. If you want to cry about them not picking Kostin then you should go after the scouts, not the trade. Or is that too difficult for you to handle as a concept? Trading for Reaves, by name, also came from ownership. Are you able to grasp that?

You say that Botteril understood... is that why a team that had 81 and 78 points before he got there only reached 62 in his first year? He really led that wagon westward! Is that why he traded FOR Hunwick (who was a terrible signing, right?) and Sheary, who is doing nothing allowing for only that lowly 4th instead of a 3rd (as it was based on his performance) Seems more like Rutherford dumped 2 bad contracts while Botteril traded for 2 bad contracts, on purpose.

You are arguing against the Florida trade because even though it improved the team, it made one spot... not really older because Cullen was on that line already... I'm not really sure since you are kind of all over the place.

Then you are made at Rutherford because you had a dream?

Maybe I have a new favorite poster...


Let's start with the Ryan Reaves thing because whoever brings it up is apparently stupid. I don't care if they picked Klim Kostin or not, but to pretend dropping 20 ish picks and "still getting the man you wanted" says something. There has been nothing in this teams recent drafting history that suggests they are finding any diamonds in the rough.

Also, are you one of the people that thinks Ryan Reaves actually was a detriment to aggressive attacks on the Penguins stars? See Corey Perry elbowing Letang in the head when Reaves was 10 feet away. He not only didn't stop the situation, he also didn't respond at all when he was hit! If you wanted to trade down 20 spots you probably could have done much better than Ryan Reaves.

The Botterill thing, if I gave the impression that he was the be all and end all then that was my bad, that wasn't what I meant. I am fully aware how Buffalo is doing. What I DO think is that Botterill was a good balance to GMJR. I think what I said about free agent college players applies, I don't think we've signed one since Botterill left. I know Aston Reese was one of these, I think either Sheary or Rust was one, I'm not sure on that though.

You point out that Cullen was already on the 4th line anyway, I had noticed that as well. He was a winger on the 4th line (a position he didn't he didn't deserve either), do you consider a center to be more important than a winger? Because you should. I originally liked the trade too and I don't care which of Bjugstad amd McCann is the 3rd and 4th line center but Matt Cullen is not going to be the 4th line center of a winning team. He has some oF the worst metrics in the entire league.

The Hunwick and Sheary comment had to deal with covering up a terrible signing that GMJR made (Hunwick), and the only way you could get out of that salary is to include Sheary (which released more money). The problem I have is that you turn that money around and sign Jack mofo Johnson! And anyone that sits there and says "oh THIS again" or "he really seems to be playing better lately" or "did you see him level Nugent Hopkins the other day?"... Yes I know it is repeated all the time, but if you do the actual research then you will see he is an absolute anchor, he makes every player he plays with worse by a high percentage. If you don't consider him being given top four minutes a huge issue then you probably think it is a voodoo doll that has the Penguins barely in a playoff spot.

There are many things that have contributed to this poor season, JJ is the most popular (for a reason), depth scoring is another. Not having Justin Schultz really hurt. Matt Murray's terrible start to the season.

As to the idiotic comment that I was mad at Rutherford because of a dream... Yah. .. sure. It was actually a comment that my worry for the way things are being handled are so great that it actually disturbs my sleep.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Mythodikal on Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:01 pm

longtimefan wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:The argument of this post is very interesting to me. To start I don't disagree that some people make arguments against GMJR for his win now approach, and that he is mortgaging the future. The fact of the matter is that Crosby and Malkin are past their prime and every year they can continue to play at an elite level is a blessing. I am totally OK with a win now approach.

The part I find amusing is this post totally based on trading younger, like this makes the team better now and later. Just because someone is an RFA and younger doesn't make them better for the team. Let's take the Bjugstad and McCann deal for Brassard and Sheahan deal. I am fully aware Brassard wasn't working the way we wanted, so this deal is made... sweet! Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!

You mentioned him trading Sprong for a 22 year old D man. Petersson looks like he has some potential. We can't forget that in the summer Hunwick (who was a terrible signing) needed Sheary (a pretty young winger) to be included for a 4th round pick. What did they do with that money? They signed Jack Johnson to a 5 year contract that they weren't even bidding against anyone. Yup, that's looking to the future. Oh and when they needed to clear a D man for their roster, they got rid of the young controlable Oleksiak, because there is no way to do anything about the absurd JJ contract.

When Jason Botteril was with the team he understood they were mortgaging draft picks and prospects. In that time they signed A LOT of college players, haven't seen that much lately... oh and lest we forget the first trade with GMJR on his own was 1ST ROUND PICK for Ryan Reaves!!! And don't give me that "it's a late 1st round pick". I love the argument when people bring up that the Blues drafted Klim Kostin with that pick and GMJR says "well he wasn't even on our radar"... why not?!?!

This team has been so mismanaged for the last 2 years that I actually had a dream 2 nights ago that they traded Letang for a 2nd round pick and a "top prospect" that I couldnt't find on Google. When I woke up I thought it was true.

You can look at the ages of the players traded... look at the contracts of the players signed. Look at the lack of creative signings, look at the poor drafting, have we had any late round wins?

GMJR is screwing uo the now, and is doing no favours for the future.


I really find the Botterill reference amusing. Thus far, he's not gotten a team to the playoffs. He was also part of the debacle that was the Shero/Bylsma regime's last years. JR is a shoo-in to be enshrined to the HOF. The only GM since expansion to win Cups with two franchises. Jim is right, they traded down 20 spots in that draft to acquire Reaves. The great Klim Kostin? Shouldn't we wait until he plays an NHL game before anointing him? He's players 42 AHL games thus far and has 6 goals and 15 points. No one will argue that Hunwick was a mistake, but I don't expect perfection. He righted it by moving Sheary, who had to go anyway because of his cap hit. And you probably lost one draft round to include Hunwick. Sheary has 9 goals and 23 points in 53 games. He likely would not be able to crack the current lineup.

You should read up on McCann and Bjugstad before criticizing them. McCann dropped to the 24th pick, just like Klostin dropped to 31st. McCann was projected to go 10 to 15. Both players are capable of playing both center and wing. The impetus of the deal was McCann, whose stats are almost identical to those of Chris Tierney at the same age. Tierney was a popular choice on these boards to be the 3C acquisition. The fans are the ones who presumed Bjugstad was the 3C and McCann the 4C. That was never mentioned by the team. McCann was the one they inquired about. Bjugstad got added when Tallon expressed an interest in shedding salary. And both have played better in the short time they've been here than Brassard and Sheahan had possibly at any point this season. The facts are 1st round picks in the 20's are more likely to be 3rd liners than top 6 players.

The bottom line is the team has gotten considerably younger with the deals made, and they have controllabel assets moving forward. Controllable assets can be used in deals down the road. UFA's leave you with nothing except cap space. The dearth of picks is part of the cost of a perrenial contender who has had one pick higher than the 20's since Jordan Staal. And Shero drafted Pouliot. Or is that JR's fault too?

As far as JJ, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. You may not like him, but the team loves him. Which is the only opinion that matters. I appreciate and love his physicality. I also realize he's played out of his natural position all season long. The mainstream media seems to be okay with him. He's struggled. So did Gonchar and MArtin their first seasons. If you were a fan when Gonchar was signed, I expect you were one of those calling for him to be traded. Fans on here are so damn spoiled! They have 3 cups in 10 years. They have 12 straight playoff appearances, and that's twice as many as anybody else. Spoiled rotten fan base.


Longtime fan I really liked your post. Some of what you wrote I just responded to in another response post. The fact the team has become younger with controllable assets is a great thing. I have looked up Bjugstad and McCann and I wasn't talking crap about them. I was talking crap about Matt 42 year old Cullen being the 4th line center.

To get to the dead horse... saying that the team loves him, and that the media loves him means nothing. Some of my favourite teammates throughout years of sports were the worst players, but they did all the things a teamate should do. Even media, general managers, and coaches fall into these same traps. People have become really good at numbers... every statistical metric shows that the dead horse is just that, a dead strong horse. This was all known before he was signed. Just look at the GMJR press conference that said that "they knew why JJ was benched during the playoffs and it had nothing to do with his play". Torts was furious, he is one of the types to put stock in the unmeasurables more than anyone else and HE benched JJ...

Thanks for the talk.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby longtimefan on Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:35 am

Mythodikal wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:The argument of this post is very interesting to me. To start I don't disagree that some people make arguments against GMJR for his win now approach, and that he is mortgaging the future. The fact of the matter is that Crosby and Malkin are past their prime and every year they can continue to play at an elite level is a blessing. I am totally OK with a win now approach.

The part I find amusing is this post totally based on trading younger, like this makes the team better now and later. Just because someone is an RFA and younger doesn't make them better for the team. Let's take the Bjugstad and McCann deal for Brassard and Sheahan deal. I am fully aware Brassard wasn't working the way we wanted, so this deal is made... sweet! Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!

You mentioned him trading Sprong for a 22 year old D man. Petersson looks like he has some potential. We can't forget that in the summer Hunwick (who was a terrible signing) needed Sheary (a pretty young winger) to be included for a 4th round pick. What did they do with that money? They signed Jack Johnson to a 5 year contract that they weren't even bidding against anyone. Yup, that's looking to the future. Oh and when they needed to clear a D man for their roster, they got rid of the young controlable Oleksiak, because there is no way to do anything about the absurd JJ contract.

When Jason Botteril was with the team he understood they were mortgaging draft picks and prospects. In that time they signed A LOT of college players, haven't seen that much lately... oh and lest we forget the first trade with GMJR on his own was 1ST ROUND PICK for Ryan Reaves!!! And don't give me that "it's a late 1st round pick". I love the argument when people bring up that the Blues drafted Klim Kostin with that pick and GMJR says "well he wasn't even on our radar"... why not?!?!

This team has been so mismanaged for the last 2 years that I actually had a dream 2 nights ago that they traded Letang for a 2nd round pick and a "top prospect" that I couldnt't find on Google. When I woke up I thought it was true.

You can look at the ages of the players traded... look at the contracts of the players signed. Look at the lack of creative signings, look at the poor drafting, have we had any late round wins?

GMJR is screwing uo the now, and is doing no favours for the future.


I really find the Botterill reference amusing. Thus far, he's not gotten a team to the playoffs. He was also part of the debacle that was the Shero/Bylsma regime's last years. JR is a shoo-in to be enshrined to the HOF. The only GM since expansion to win Cups with two franchises. Jim is right, they traded down 20 spots in that draft to acquire Reaves. The great Klim Kostin? Shouldn't we wait until he plays an NHL game before anointing him? He's players 42 AHL games thus far and has 6 goals and 15 points. No one will argue that Hunwick was a mistake, but I don't expect perfection. He righted it by moving Sheary, who had to go anyway because of his cap hit. And you probably lost one draft round to include Hunwick. Sheary has 9 goals and 23 points in 53 games. He likely would not be able to crack the current lineup.

You should read up on McCann and Bjugstad before criticizing them. McCann dropped to the 24th pick, just like Klostin dropped to 31st. McCann was projected to go 10 to 15. Both players are capable of playing both center and wing. The impetus of the deal was McCann, whose stats are almost identical to those of Chris Tierney at the same age. Tierney was a popular choice on these boards to be the 3C acquisition. The fans are the ones who presumed Bjugstad was the 3C and McCann the 4C. That was never mentioned by the team. McCann was the one they inquired about. Bjugstad got added when Tallon expressed an interest in shedding salary. And both have played better in the short time they've been here than Brassard and Sheahan had possibly at any point this season. The facts are 1st round picks in the 20's are more likely to be 3rd liners than top 6 players.

The bottom line is the team has gotten considerably younger with the deals made, and they have controllabel assets moving forward. Controllable assets can be used in deals down the road. UFA's leave you with nothing except cap space. The dearth of picks is part of the cost of a perrenial contender who has had one pick higher than the 20's since Jordan Staal. And Shero drafted Pouliot. Or is that JR's fault too?

As far as JJ, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. You may not like him, but the team loves him. Which is the only opinion that matters. I appreciate and love his physicality. I also realize he's played out of his natural position all season long. The mainstream media seems to be okay with him. He's struggled. So did Gonchar and MArtin their first seasons. If you were a fan when Gonchar was signed, I expect you were one of those calling for him to be traded. Fans on here are so damn spoiled! They have 3 cups in 10 years. They have 12 straight playoff appearances, and that's twice as many as anybody else. Spoiled rotten fan base.


Longtime fan I really liked your post. Some of what you wrote I just responded to in another response post. The fact the team has become younger with controllable assets is a great thing. I have looked up Bjugstad and McCann and I wasn't talking crap about them. I was talking crap about Matt 42 year old Cullen being the 4th line center.

To get to the dead horse... saying that the team loves him, and that the media loves him means nothing. Some of my favourite teammates throughout years of sports were the worst players, but they did all the things a teamate should do. Even media, general managers, and coaches fall into these same traps. People have become really good at numbers... every statistical metric shows that the dead horse is just that, a dead strong horse. This was all known before he was signed. Just look at the GMJR press conference that said that "they knew why JJ was benched during the playoffs and it had nothing to do with his play". Torts was furious, he is one of the types to put stock in the unmeasurables more than anyone else and HE benched JJ...

Thanks for the talk.


I apologize if I misunderstood. I will point out Cullen has been playing good hockey, and people do forget he led the team in icetime for game 6 against the Preds two seasons ago. He's also been strong on th PK, and has 2 SHG goals and 4 SHP Pts. There was a nice article, I don't recall if it was DK or the Athletic, about his role in shutting down McDavid on Wednesday night. Sid's comment was that if you need defense, you always turn to Cully. He's got a strong playoff background. It doesn't hurt to have a veteran guy like that around. His age is a non-factor to me, since I firmly believe this is his last go around.

I'm not a analytics basher, nor am I a huge fan. They need a lot of work. As I posted elsewhere, why don't they break it down based on left side and right side? People say Rust is stronger on the right, but there's no stats available to reinforce the point. I wonder what type of analytics Ulf Samuelsson produced? If you have a subscription, DK had a nice article about Johnson the other day. The videos are what gave the piece its bite. The ingriedient he adds is physicality, and he is by far their most physical player. He showed it again in both weekend games. He plays like a linebacker. There is value. He's been given a larger role than planned, and has had to play his off side most of the season. I'm willing to see how he does now that Schultz is back and he can play LD again. Unfortunately, Maatta's injury has again pushed him up the depth chart a bit.

Here's the thing about his last season in Colombus. It was reported by the Athletic's writer from Colombus that he turned down a 6 year extension, worth about the same cap hit as he got from the Pens, the summer before last season, and he also reported they discussed it further last January. JJ requested a trade. For reasons we are not aware of. They wouldn't trade him unless they could have got a #1 in return, feeling his value to them as depth was greater. Who knows what happened there. Torts did scratch him, but he's the same coach who played JJ 24-25 minutes a night consistently, season after season. He also named JJ to the World Cup team in 2016. JJ has played in the Olympics. To me, he's fine for what he was signed for. A #5 defenseman who adds physicality. People were very excited when they added Doug Murray a few years ago. I just think the criticism of JJ since before he was signed is over the top.

The Torts reaction was misunderstood. From what I heard, it was more Torts sticking up for his franchise, who is in the midst of an identity crisis, because people don't seem to want to stay there. JJ asked to be traded, then Panarin and Bobrovsky both made it pretty clear they weren't interested in extending. JR said something that he regrets, and admitted it came out wrong. Torts didn't like the suggestion that there was a cultural problem on his team. His trade request may or may not have led to his being a scratch, but his relationship with Torts was always very strong. He even defended JJ's trade request to the media. My point is he added an ingriedient the Pens felt was lacking, and being paid as our fifth defenseman isn't going to win, or lose, a Cup.

Again, I apologize if I misunderstood your reply. I've just got to the breaking point of the vitriol spewed on the boards. His salary is in line with a low end #4, high end #5 defenseman. He'll fall lower than that as the contract ages and others sign for the higher salaries the cap will bring. He's a role player, and that's what his salary suggests. His cap hit will be 3.9% if the cap goes to $83M next season. He's not likely to be the difference between winning or losing.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Mythodikal on Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:56 am

longtimefan wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:The argument of this post is very interesting to me. To start I don't disagree that some people make arguments against GMJR for his win now approach, and that he is mortgaging the future. The fact of the matter is that Crosby and Malkin are past their prime and every year they can continue to play at an elite level is a blessing. I am totally OK with a win now approach.

The part I find amusing is this post totally based on trading younger, like this makes the team better now and later. Just because someone is an RFA and younger doesn't make them better for the team. Let's take the Bjugstad and McCann deal for Brassard and Sheahan deal. I am fully aware Brassard wasn't working the way we wanted, so this deal is made... sweet! Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!

You mentioned him trading Sprong for a 22 year old D man. Petersson looks like he has some potential. We can't forget that in the summer Hunwick (who was a terrible signing) needed Sheary (a pretty young winger) to be included for a 4th round pick. What did they do with that money? They signed Jack Johnson to a 5 year contract that they weren't even bidding against anyone. Yup, that's looking to the future. Oh and when they needed to clear a D man for their roster, they got rid of the young controlable Oleksiak, because there is no way to do anything about the absurd JJ contract.

When Jason Botteril was with the team he understood they were mortgaging draft picks and prospects. In that time they signed A LOT of college players, haven't seen that much lately... oh and lest we forget the first trade with GMJR on his own was 1ST ROUND PICK for Ryan Reaves!!! And don't give me that "it's a late 1st round pick". I love the argument when people bring up that the Blues drafted Klim Kostin with that pick and GMJR says "well he wasn't even on our radar"... why not?!?!

This team has been so mismanaged for the last 2 years that I actually had a dream 2 nights ago that they traded Letang for a 2nd round pick and a "top prospect" that I couldnt't find on Google. When I woke up I thought it was true.

You can look at the ages of the players traded... look at the contracts of the players signed. Look at the lack of creative signings, look at the poor drafting, have we had any late round wins?

GMJR is screwing uo the now, and is doing no favours for the future.


I really find the Botterill reference amusing. Thus far, he's not gotten a team to the playoffs. He was also part of the debacle that was the Shero/Bylsma regime's last years. JR is a shoo-in to be enshrined to the HOF. The only GM since expansion to win Cups with two franchises. Jim is right, they traded down 20 spots in that draft to acquire Reaves. The great Klim Kostin? Shouldn't we wait until he plays an NHL game before anointing him? He's players 42 AHL games thus far and has 6 goals and 15 points. No one will argue that Hunwick was a mistake, but I don't expect perfection. He righted it by moving Sheary, who had to go anyway because of his cap hit. And you probably lost one draft round to include Hunwick. Sheary has 9 goals and 23 points in 53 games. He likely would not be able to crack the current lineup.

You should read up on McCann and Bjugstad before criticizing them. McCann dropped to the 24th pick, just like Klostin dropped to 31st. McCann was projected to go 10 to 15. Both players are capable of playing both center and wing. The impetus of the deal was McCann, whose stats are almost identical to those of Chris Tierney at the same age. Tierney was a popular choice on these boards to be the 3C acquisition. The fans are the ones who presumed Bjugstad was the 3C and McCann the 4C. That was never mentioned by the team. McCann was the one they inquired about. Bjugstad got added when Tallon expressed an interest in shedding salary. And both have played better in the short time they've been here than Brassard and Sheahan had possibly at any point this season. The facts are 1st round picks in the 20's are more likely to be 3rd liners than top 6 players.

The bottom line is the team has gotten considerably younger with the deals made, and they have controllabel assets moving forward. Controllable assets can be used in deals down the road. UFA's leave you with nothing except cap space. The dearth of picks is part of the cost of a perrenial contender who has had one pick higher than the 20's since Jordan Staal. And Shero drafted Pouliot. Or is that JR's fault too?

As far as JJ, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. You may not like him, but the team loves him. Which is the only opinion that matters. I appreciate and love his physicality. I also realize he's played out of his natural position all season long. The mainstream media seems to be okay with him. He's struggled. So did Gonchar and MArtin their first seasons. If you were a fan when Gonchar was signed, I expect you were one of those calling for him to be traded. Fans on here are so damn spoiled! They have 3 cups in 10 years. They have 12 straight playoff appearances, and that's twice as many as anybody else. Spoiled rotten fan base.


Longtime fan I really liked your post. Some of what you wrote I just responded to in another response post. The fact the team has become younger with controllable assets is a great thing. I have looked up Bjugstad and McCann and I wasn't talking crap about them. I was talking crap about Matt 42 year old Cullen being the 4th line center.

To get to the dead horse... saying that the team loves him, and that the media loves him means nothing. Some of my favourite teammates throughout years of sports were the worst players, but they did all the things a teamate should do. Even media, general managers, and coaches fall into these same traps. People have become really good at numbers... every statistical metric shows that the dead horse is just that, a dead strong horse. This was all known before he was signed. Just look at the GMJR press conference that said that "they knew why JJ was benched during the playoffs and it had nothing to do with his play". Torts was furious, he is one of the types to put stock in the unmeasurables more than anyone else and HE benched JJ...

Thanks for the talk.


I apologize if I misunderstood. I will point out Cullen has been playing good hockey, and people do forget he led the team in icetime for game 6 against the Preds two seasons ago. He's also been strong on th PK, and has 2 SHG goals and 4 SHP Pts. There was a nice article, I don't recall if it was DK or the Athletic, about his role in shutting down McDavid on Wednesday night. Sid's comment was that if you need defense, you always turn to Cully. He's got a strong playoff background. It doesn't hurt to have a veteran guy like that around. His age is a non-factor to me, since I firmly believe this is his last go around.

I'm not a analytics basher, nor am I a huge fan. They need a lot of work. As I posted elsewhere, why don't they break it down based on left side and right side? People say Rust is stronger on the right, but there's no stats available to reinforce the point. I wonder what type of analytics Ulf Samuelsson produced? If you have a subscription, DK had a nice article about Johnson the other day. The videos are what gave the piece its bite. The ingriedient he adds is physicality, and he is by far their most physical player. He showed it again in both weekend games. He plays like a linebacker. There is value. He's been given a larger role than planned, and has had to play his off side most of the season. I'm willing to see how he does now that Schultz is back and he can play LD again. Unfortunately, Maatta's injury has again pushed him up the depth chart a bit.

Here's the thing about his last season in Colombus. It was reported by the Athletic's writer from Colombus that he turned down a 6 year extension, worth about the same cap hit as he got from the Pens, the summer before last season, and he also reported they discussed it further last January. JJ requested a trade. For reasons we are not aware of. They wouldn't trade him unless they could have got a #1 in return, feeling his value to them as depth was greater. Who knows what happened there. Torts did scratch him, but he's the same coach who played JJ 24-25 minutes a night consistently, season after season. He also named JJ to the World Cup team in 2016. JJ has played in the Olympics. To me, he's fine for what he was signed for. A #5 defenseman who adds physicality. People were very excited when they added Doug Murray a few years ago. I just think the criticism of JJ since before he was signed is over the top.

The Torts reaction was misunderstood. From what I heard, it was more Torts sticking up for his franchise, who is in the midst of an identity crisis, because people don't seem to want to stay there. JJ asked to be traded, then Panarin and Bobrovsky both made it pretty clear they weren't interested in extending. JR said something that he regrets, and admitted it came out wrong. Torts didn't like the suggestion that there was a cultural problem on his team. His trade request may or may not have led to his being a scratch, but his relationship with Torts was always very strong. He even defended JJ's trade request to the media. My point is he added an ingriedient the Pens felt was lacking, and being paid as our fifth defenseman isn't going to win, or lose, a Cup.

Again, I apologize if I misunderstood your reply. I've just got to the breaking point of the vitriol spewed on the boards. His salary is in line with a low end #4, high end #5 defenseman. He'll fall lower than that as the contract ages and others sign for the higher salaries the cap will bring. He's a role player, and that's what his salary suggests. His cap hit will be 3.9% if the cap goes to $83M next season. He's not likely to be the difference between winning or losing.


First off I would like to say, man it is good to just have a conversation with someone. People are going to disagree and that is fine. I really liked one of the previous posters in this thread commenting on how spoiled we are as Penguins fans... I can't say they are wrong.

To your comments, with all due respect, when looking at this season's performance, what Matt Cullen did against the Preds 2 years ago means nothing. You have little use for analytics and that's fine, I quite enjoy them and well, math is math. I think a common mistake is that people who like analytics believe that the game will always follow those stats. As far as I'm concerned it's the outliers in life and sports that make it fun.

That being said, we have entered a time of so many stats, whether it be corsica, Fenwick, expected goals for, expected goals against, high danger scoring chances for or against, controlled exits or entries, neutral zone cary, and on and on and on. If these numbers aren't your jam, that's cool. I do watch the games, and I know what all of the teamates and analysts (oh which many deny the purpose of analytics ) say.

We set the new normal in 16 with speed and youth. Now everyone else is doing speed and youth. We may have traded to get younger recently, just lacking speed and skill.

BTW my wife is getting very annoyed by my attention to this discussion. Haha
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Jim on Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:01 am

Mythodikal wrote:Let's start with the Ryan Reaves thing because whoever brings it up is apparently stupid.

That's not what I said, but not surprised that you got it wrong. I said that people that say the Pens traded a "1st for Reaves" are stupid. ...because they are stupid.


Mythodikal wrote:I don't care if they picked Klim Kostin or not, but to pretend dropping 20 ish picks and "still getting the man you wanted" says something. There has been nothing in this teams recent drafting history that suggests they are finding any diamonds in the rough.

So then that is a scout issue, not a GM issue.


Mythodikal wrote:Also, are you one of the people that thinks Ryan Reaves actually was a detriment to aggressive attacks on the Penguins stars? See Corey Perry elbowing Letang in the head when Reaves was 10 feet away. He not only didn't stop the situation, he also didn't respond at all when he was hit! If you wanted to trade down 20 spots you probably could have done much better than Ryan Reaves.

No, you couldn't have done better. And this directive came from ownership to Rutherford, naming Reaves specifically.


Mythodikal wrote:You point out that Cullen was already on the 4th line anyway, I had noticed that as well. He was a winger on the 4th line (a position he didn't he didn't deserve either), do you consider a center to be more important than a winger? Because you should. I originally liked the trade too and I don't care which of Bjugstad amd McCann is the 3rd and 4th line center but Matt Cullen is not going to be the 4th line center of a winning team. He has some oF the worst metrics in the entire league.

Not relevant to your comment. Your comment was about age. Your comment was about people liking that the trade made the team younger, countering it by pointing out that Cullen was 4C and "42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!" He was already on the game roster so you are just grabbing at straws to try to take shots at Rutherford.


Mythodikal wrote:...The problem I have is that you turn that money around and sign Jack mofo Johnson! And anyone that sits there and says "oh THIS again" or "he really seems to be playing better lately" or "did you see him level Nugent Hopkins the other day?"... Yes I know it is repeated all the time, but if you do the actual research then you will see he is an absolute anchor, he makes every player he plays with worse by a high percentage. If you don't consider him being given top four minutes a huge issue then you probably think it is a voodoo doll that has the Penguins barely in a playoff spot.

Playing position and ice time are a coaching decision, not a GM decision.


Side question... how is it that the good decisions like signing college kids were not Rutherford's doing but someone else's (Botterill) while bad decisions (Hunwick, Jack Johnson, etc) were 100% Rutherford?
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Re: Moving forward

Postby johnnews on Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:36 pm

Having been at both games this weekend, I can say this. JJ looks like a much better signing with Schultz next to him.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Mythodikal on Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:36 am

Jim wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:Let's start with the Ryan Reaves thing because whoever brings it up is apparently stupid.

That's not what I said, but not surprised that you got it wrong. I said that people that say the Pens traded a "1st for Reaves" are stupid. ...because they are stupid.


Mythodikal wrote:I don't care if they picked Klim Kostin or not, but to pretend dropping 20 ish picks and "still getting the man you wanted" says something. There has been nothing in this teams recent drafting history that suggests they are finding any diamonds in the rough.

So then that is a scout issue, not a GM issue.


Mythodikal wrote:Also, are you one of the people that thinks Ryan Reaves actually was a detriment to aggressive attacks on the Penguins stars? See Corey Perry elbowing Letang in the head when Reaves was 10 feet away. He not only didn't stop the situation, he also didn't respond at all when he was hit! If you wanted to trade down 20 spots you probably could have done much better than Ryan Reaves.

No, you couldn't have done better. And this directive came from ownership to Rutherford, naming Reaves specifically.


Mythodikal wrote:You point out that Cullen was already on the 4th line anyway, I had noticed that as well. He was a winger on the 4th line (a position he didn't he didn't deserve either), do you consider a center to be more important than a winger? Because you should. I originally liked the trade too and I don't care which of Bjugstad amd McCann is the 3rd and 4th line center but Matt Cullen is not going to be the 4th line center of a winning team. He has some oF the worst metrics in the entire league.

Not relevant to your comment. Your comment was about age. Your comment was about people liking that the trade made the team younger, countering it by pointing out that Cullen was 4C and "42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!" He was already on the game roster so you are just grabbing at straws to try to take shots at Rutherford.


Mythodikal wrote:...The problem I have is that you turn that money around and sign Jack mofo Johnson! And anyone that sits there and says "oh THIS again" or "he really seems to be playing better lately" or "did you see him level Nugent Hopkins the other day?"... Yes I know it is repeated all the time, but if you do the actual research then you will see he is an absolute anchor, he makes every player he plays with worse by a high percentage. If you don't consider him being given top four minutes a huge issue then you probably think it is a voodoo doll that has the Penguins barely in a playoff spot.

Playing position and ice time are a coaching decision, not a GM decision.


Side question... how is it that the good decisions like signing college kids were not Rutherford's doing but someone else's (Botterill) while bad decisions (Hunwick, Jack Johnson, etc) were 100% Rutherford?


Jim, I appreciate your opinion and your passion for this subject. The more we continue down this road the more clear it is to me that what you read in my posts is not necessarily my intended meaning. I will take my own blame on that.

Having a discussion and bantering back and forth is a wonderful thing. I hope knowing all of your opinions are 100% correct works out well for you. It continues to be an exciting time for our favorite team. It's all fun. I apologize if my opinion has upset your sensibilities.

#wecool?
Mythodikal
 
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Jim on Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:54 am

Mythodikal wrote:#wecool?


I'm not cool. Never have been. I'm more the cousin that no one ever talks about.
Jim
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Mythodikal on Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:38 am

Jim wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:#wecool?


I'm not cool. Never have been. I'm more the cousin that no one ever talks about.


Great answer Jim. I think we're going to be okay. Have a great day.
Mythodikal
 
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