Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Hot Dog Vendor on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:34 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Pruezy11881 wrote:So DeSmith gets a contract extension for 3 years. And Jarry is a on a 1 way deal next year. This mean Jarry is now trade bait or is DeSmith now that he has cost certainty??

I agree, and if you ask me, I'd move Jarry. Pickup a young goalie somewhere in a trade that is a few years away, like, ready for their first pro season in WBS. Murray turns 25 in May. He's going to be here a long time. A proven (this year) backup like DeSmith for cheap helps the team, and, DeSmith seems to be able to push Murray a bit. Worst case, I have confidence after DeSmith's play this year that they could be split starters, and with Murray's injury history, that's a good thing.

Find a 20 year old goalie with some upside in someone's system to add to WBS, and move Jarry to a team looking for a young, NHL ready goalie. Not sure if Jarry is ready to be a starter, but, he is ready to at least get 20 games in a season at the NHL level.


I know of a 20-year-old in Ottawa's system named Filip Gustavsson that fits the bill.

Spoiler:
See what I did there?

It's hindsight at this point. The trade happened. At the time of the deal, I don't think anyone would really complain. Everyone thought Brassard would fit. He hasn't.

Gustavsson, by the way, is sporting a 3.45 GAA and .887 SV% in 25 games in the AHL, so, he isn't exactly showing he is anywhere near close to the NHL.


I know. Doesn't make it any less funny.

I will say though that while not being a revisionist, I wasn't over the moon about the Brassard trade when it went down. Too many moving parts & too much given up. Moreover, Stastny was the center I wanted, and the irony of Stastny going to the Jets when Vegas's only reason for helping in the Brassard deal was to keep Brassard away from the Jets is delicious.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:34 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:Jarry is only 23 years old. The one-way contract simply indicates that he is paid his NHL salary no matter where he is (AHL or NHL). He also has to clear waivers.... but that is only if he is sent down after being called up? If he stays in the AHL all season he is fine or am I wrong?

Mostly. He's going to have to clear waivers after training camp next season, and somebody is sure to claim him. That will be the issue.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby longtimefan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:38 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:Jarry is only 23 years old. The one-way contract simply indicates that he is paid his NHL salary no matter where he is (AHL or NHL). He also has to clear waivers.... but that is only if he is sent down after being called up? If he stays in the AHL all season he is fine or am I wrong?


If there are no options remaining, he has to be put through waivers if he doesn't stay on the big club. Same situation as Sprong was this season.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby DelPen on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:38 pm

Think of the Expansion Draft in 2020 and then also general waivers.

DeSmith can be exposed in expansion since he will Ben under contract which means Murray is safe. That’s a good thing.

Not sure how many more games Jarry has for waiver exemption but he won’t clear. It would be best to find a team that has some players who will be both waiver and expansion exempt through 2021 which means current juniors recently drafted, or even for someone to help win now if he’s needed for a trade.

In either case he will he gone in two years for nothing so get assets now for him if you can.

I’m also perfectly fine with DeSmith as the backup. He’s proven he is at least capable of that and that cap hit is great.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:43 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:Jarry is only 23 years old. The one-way contract simply indicates that he is paid his NHL salary no matter where he is (AHL or NHL). He also has to clear waivers.... but that is only if he is sent down after being called up? If he stays in the AHL all season he is fine or am I wrong?

Mostly. He's going to have to clear waivers after training camp next season, and somebody is sure to claim him. That will be the issue.



Can the Penguins get a 2nd round pick for him? If the answer is no, then this is the issue I have with drafting goalies. We used a 2nd round pick on the kid in 2013. At the time we had MAF and we had drafted Murray the year before. Why on earth do teams even draft goalies if you can at any point get a guy like Jarry for *less* than the team that selected him in the draft after developing the kid for years?
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:48 pm

Penguins also have Alex D'Orio in the system, who turns 20 at the end of April. I wouldn't be surprised to see D'Orio up for WBS playoffs (if they make them).

While D'Orio has a bad year this year with Saint John (26 games, 4.48 GAA, .883 SV%), Saint Johns is also 2nd worst team in the QMJHL. D'Orio was recently traded to Baie-Comeau, who are tied for 1st in their conference and tied for 2nd with 3 teams with 61 points. In his 2 games for Baie-Comeau, D'Orio is 2-0 with a 1.00 GAA and .951 SV%.

Unless they have a deal where they need to include Jarry as a piece, I'd wait until the summer and move Jarry at the draft. That way, you still have Jarry should you need to dress him for the playoffs. He has that experience that Muse or Peters don't have.

Draft another goalie this year after trading Jarry, and they are ok.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:50 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:Jarry is only 23 years old. The one-way contract simply indicates that he is paid his NHL salary no matter where he is (AHL or NHL). He also has to clear waivers.... but that is only if he is sent down after being called up? If he stays in the AHL all season he is fine or am I wrong?

Mostly. He's going to have to clear waivers after training camp next season, and somebody is sure to claim him. That will be the issue.



Can the Penguins get a 2nd round pick for him? If the answer is no, then this is the issue I have with drafting goalies. We used a 2nd round pick on the kid in 2013. At the time we had MAF and we had drafted Murray the year before. Why on earth do teams even draft goalies if you can at any point get a guy like Jarry for *less* than the team that selected him in the draft after developing the kid for years?

Because not every pick works out. For every Tristan Jarry, there's a Craig Hillier.

You like to have the depth, but at the same time, there are only 2 on your active roster, and when you have a very young one with 2 Cups who isn't going anywhere for awhile, you don't need to be as aggressive stockpiling goalies.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Defence21 on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:51 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:Jarry is only 23 years old. The one-way contract simply indicates that he is paid his NHL salary no matter where he is (AHL or NHL). He also has to clear waivers.... but that is only if he is sent down after being called up? If he stays in the AHL all season he is fine or am I wrong?

Mostly. He's going to have to clear waivers after training camp next season, and somebody is sure to claim him. That will be the issue.



Can the Penguins get a 2nd round pick for him? If the answer is no, then this is the issue I have with drafting goalies. We used a 2nd round pick on the kid in 2013. At the time we had MAF and we had drafted Murray the year before. Why on earth do teams even draft goalies if you can at any point get a guy like Jarry for *less* than the team that selected him in the draft after developing the kid for years?

That's far from an issue specific to the goaltender position. To add, it also has everything to do with the players' development.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:01 pm

My point is, if you have a small chance that a drafted goalie works out why not simply not draft goalies. Then, when you need a goalie simply just offer a low draft pick for one that is good. Like some team will do for Jarry. If Jarry is an example of a goalie that *did* work out and we do not get back a 2nd round pick which is what we spent on him, why then would you draft a goalie to begin with?
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:03 pm

Defence21 wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:Jarry is only 23 years old. The one-way contract simply indicates that he is paid his NHL salary no matter where he is (AHL or NHL). He also has to clear waivers.... but that is only if he is sent down after being called up? If he stays in the AHL all season he is fine or am I wrong?

Mostly. He's going to have to clear waivers after training camp next season, and somebody is sure to claim him. That will be the issue.



Can the Penguins get a 2nd round pick for him? If the answer is no, then this is the issue I have with drafting goalies. We used a 2nd round pick on the kid in 2013. At the time we had MAF and we had drafted Murray the year before. Why on earth do teams even draft goalies if you can at any point get a guy like Jarry for *less* than the team that selected him in the draft after developing the kid for years?

That's far from an issue specific to the goaltender position. To add, it also has everything to do with the players' development.


Not really. Goalie is different. Unlike a forward or defensemen where you can put a younger kid that you have developed and is not waiver eligible on the 3rd or 4th line and continue to develop them a goalie you are stuck. You have to play him or have him backup your goalie but that's it.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:10 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Penguins reportedly have two scouts at tonight's Flyers-Stars game. Not playing either team anytime soon.


Maybe the Letang for Seguin Trade we discussed. Hahaha


The Pens likely aren't trading with Philly so what does that leave from Dallas?

I've always wanted Faksa as a 3C, but I think Maatta would be an overpayment for him in a 1 for 1 situation.
Last edited by thehockeyguru on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:24 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Penguins reportedly have two scouts at tonight's Flyers-Stars game. Not playing either team anytime soon.


Maybe the Letang for Seguin Trade we discussed. Hahaha


The Pens likely aren't trading with Philly so what does that leave from Dallas?

I've always wanted Faksa as a 3C.

Faksa is having a bit of a down year, but, it really seemed like Faksa is in their long term plans. I wouldn't mind Devin Shore. Plays LW or C, playing LW this year. 32 and 33 points last 2 years, and on pace for 33 this year. Good defensively. Haven't looked at his faceoffs....not sure he was too strong last year when he was playing more center.

Faksa or Shore would be my asks from Dallas. Faksa would be preferred, as he has a bit more size and snarl to his game, with roughly same output as Shore.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:30 pm

I was looking at Shore's face offs and they aren't good. Looks like he has been utilized more as a wing.

Like I said above I think Maatta for Faksa though is a little overpayment.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:34 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:I was looking at Shore's face offs and they aren't good. Looks like he has been utilized more as a wing.

Like I said above I think Maatta for Faksa though is a little overpayment.

It definitely is. I don't know if Faksa for Simon and a 2nd would get it done either. Not much of a match or much else of real interest on Stars roster.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:40 pm

Funny. I was thinking, 'yea that guy is good', but I was mixing up Faksa with Fiala for Nashville. I remember him playing well and then he got injured in the playoffs a few years ago. Don't remember anything about Faksa.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:46 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I was looking at Shore's face offs and they aren't good. Looks like he has been utilized more as a wing.

Like I said above I think Maatta for Faksa though is a little overpayment.

It definitely is. I don't know if Faksa for Simon and a 2nd would get it done either. Not much of a match or much else of real interest on Stars roster.


What's ironic is Dallas traded us Oleksiak and him playing at his current level is what Dallas could use. But they aren't going to take him back.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby dark_forces on Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:33 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:Jarry is only 23 years old. The one-way contract simply indicates that he is paid his NHL salary no matter where he is (AHL or NHL). He also has to clear waivers.... but that is only if he is sent down after being called up? If he stays in the AHL all season he is fine or am I wrong?

Mostly. He's going to have to clear waivers after training camp next season, and somebody is sure to claim him. That will be the issue.



Can the Penguins get a 2nd round pick for him? If the answer is no, then this is the issue I have with drafting goalies. We used a 2nd round pick on the kid in 2013. At the time we had MAF and we had drafted Murray the year before. Why on earth do teams even draft goalies if you can at any point get a guy like Jarry for *less* than the team that selected him in the draft after developing the kid for years?

That's far from an issue specific to the goaltender position. To add, it also has everything to do with the players' development.


Not really. Goalie is different. Unlike a forward or defensemen where you can put a younger kid that you have developed and is not waiver eligible on the 3rd or 4th line and continue to develop them a goalie you are stuck. You have to play him or have him backup your goalie but that's it.

I recall reading somewhere this past offseason that Carolina was one of a small number of teams that put feelers out for Jarry. If we're interested in Ferland, like I've seen as a rumor in several places, that would make sense. The question is: would dealing Jarry for a rental like Ferland make sense? We do have that "window" and wouldn't be giving up anyone off the active roster.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:03 pm

I wouldn't move Jarry for a rental player.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby longtimefan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:03 pm

https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/ ... nd-goalies

I stumbled on this article that took a look at all the players who started or played at least one game in the NHL this season as of October 19th. So basically the beginning of the season. It gives an interesting breakdown of the value of each round. It is overwhelmingly a first round league. Except for goaltenders. It's based on a total of 641 skaters. These are the numbers. The article expounds further, pointing out that impact players dissipate quickly, although there are diamonds in the rough. So if the Pens trade picks, you're have a better idea of the chances that pick ever does anything. There are lottery tickets to be had though.

FIRST ROUND
Number of skaters: 261
Number of goalies: 11
40.5% of all skaters
7 of the goalies are #1's.

SECOND ROUND
Number of skaters: 107
Number of goalies: 8
16.6% of all skaters
5 of the goalies are #1's.

THIRD ROUND
Number of skaters: 54
Number of goalies: 9
8.4% of all skaters
6 of the goalies are #1's

FOURTH ROUND
Number of skaters: 44
Number of goalies: 5
6.8% of all skaters
1 of the goalies is a #1 (Holtby)

FIFTH ROUND
Number of skaters: 42
Number of goalies: 6
6.5% of skaters
2 of the goalies are #1's

SIXTH ROUND
Number of skaters: 36
Number of goalies: 4
5.6% of skaters
all the goalies are backups

SEVENTH ROUND
Number of skaters: 17
Number of goalies: 3
2.6% of skaters
1 of the goalies is a #1 (King Henrik)
The write-up snubbed Horny among it's notables.
The write-up snubbed Horny.

There were 9 rounds before 2005.

Dustin Byfuglien and Pekka Rinne remain in the league from Round 8.

Brian Elliott and Jaroslav Halak were 9th round picks.

UNDRAFTED PLAYERS
Number of skaters: 82
Number of goalies: 13
12.7% of all skaters
6 of the 13 goalies are #1's (Bobrovsky the biggest name)

There's a lot to analyze. After first and secound round picks, the third highest percentage are unsigned free agents. Six of 31 goalies is high too. Only one less than the 1st round. The team with the most were the Jets with 13. The team with the least, the VGK with only 2.

The Pens breakdown on it's current 23 man roster (including ZAR but not Wilson) plus Schultz

1st round- 9
2nd round- 5
3rd round- 3
4th round- 1
5th round- 1
7th round- 1
UDFA- 4

Anyway, probably more relevant around draft time. But I found it interesting and wanted to share.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby pens_CT on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:32 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:I wouldn't move Jarry for a rental player.



More importantly if Murray gets hurt again and Jarry is gone then who is the backup? I think this organization has shown that you need three goalies available going into the playoffs.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:33 pm

dark_forces wrote:I recall reading somewhere this past offseason that Carolina was one of a small number of teams that put feelers out for Jarry. If we're interested in Ferland, like I've seen as a rumor in several places, that would make sense. The question is: would dealing Jarry for a rental like Ferland make sense? We do have that "window" and wouldn't be giving up anyone off the active roster.

Unless you are trading Simon in a deal, I don't see a fit for Ferland. Ferland is not a 4th line guy. His style could work there, but, he's a 30-40 point player, so if you are getting Ferland, you are bumping Simon or Pearson.

I still really have this strong feeling that a rather large deal is going to be made. For who, with who, and who going out, I have no idea. But, every team out that has to be looking at Tampa and wondering what they need to do to keep pace with Tampa....even the Penguins. Tampa has only lost 8 games all year, and has only lost 2 games in a row ONCE. When healthy, they

Johnson-Point-Kucherov
Miller-Stamkos-Killorn
Palat-Callahan-Gourde
Erne-Paquette-Joseph

They have 3 players (Kucherov,Point, Stamkos) already over 20 goals, with Johnson at 18. Point is 2 away from 30 goals.
They have one of the top goalies this year in Vasilevskiy.
Their goal differential is so high (I think plus 50 something) they have only ONE player (Stamkos, -3) that is a minus player.

Pittsburgh lost their only game against Tampa, 4-3. We play Tampa twice between now and the trade deadline. Those 2 games may be the ultimate measuring stick of what needs to be added to this team. Things are always different in the playoffs. We've seen Vezina caliber regular season goalies like Bob and Holtby melt down in the playoffs, but right now, Tampa is the odds on favorite.

Penguins have a few weeks to get Geno going, the 3rd line sorted out, and/or make moves to do so.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:40 pm

pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I wouldn't move Jarry for a rental player.



More importantly if Murray gets hurt again and Jarry is gone then who is the backup? I think this organization has shown that you need three goalies available going into the playoffs.

That's why I reversed course and said that, unless there is a bigger deal that requires Jarry, hang onto him until the summer, and move him then.

Or they could go out and get a UFA for some added depth. Miller, Howard, Johnson, etc.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Daniel on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:53 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:My point is, if you have a small chance that a drafted goalie works out why not simply not draft goalies. Then, when you need a goalie simply just offer a low draft pick for one that is good. Like some team will do for Jarry. If Jarry is an example of a goalie that *did* work out and we do not get back a 2nd round pick which is what we spent on him, why then would you draft a goalie to begin with?


In all fairness, when they drafted Jarry, did anyone see the Pens having 3 legit NHL goalies under the age of 27 at this point in time? Heck, the Pens might have more success with Jarry/DeSmith/Murray than any goalie they've developed of the past 30 years combined.

If Jarry is moved, and I still think Murray needs to prove he can be reliable long term, I think he'll be part of a huge trade and not a one for one deal. Of course, now that I say that, he'll be off like Hagelin for Pearson. :scared:
Last edited by Daniel on Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Cow_Master66 on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:53 pm

I would keep all 3 but would definitely keep Jarry over DeSmith.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:58 pm

Daniel wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:My point is, if you have a small chance that a drafted goalie works out why not simply not draft goalies. Then, when you need a goalie simply just offer a low draft pick for one that is good. Like some team will do for Jarry. If Jarry is an example of a goalie that *did* work out and we do not get back a 2nd round pick which is what we spent on him, why then would you draft a goalie to begin with?


In all fairness, when they drafted Jarry, did anyone see the Pens having 3 legit NHL goalies under the age of 25 at this point in time? Heck, the Pens might have more success with Jarry/DeSmith/Murray than any goalie they've developed of the past 30 years combined.

If Jarry is moved, and I still think Murray needs to prove he can be reliable long term, I think he'll be part of a huge trade and not a one for one deal. Of course, now that I say that, he'll be off like Hagelin for Pearson. :scared:

Who are the 3 goalies under 25? (DeSmith is 27 :D )

I think if Murray were to stumble they have enough faith in DeSmith to play 50% of the games. Not sure if DeSmith can be the #1 for a full season.....but.....can Murray? Because with injury, he has yet to do it.
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