2018 Summer Game Plan

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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:29 am

FLPensFan wrote:The problem is, can you really afford to pay your 4th line 6-10M, depending who is on it? I think Hagelin-Sheahan-Rust would be an excellent 4th line, if we had the forwards above them to push them down to 4th line.....but that would be almost 9-10M on a 4th line. Technically, I guess it wouldn't matter if you are considering ZAR-Brassard-Sprong your starting 3rd line, because it is only a 5M line....so cost wise, it is just reversed.

I'd rather pay Rust 3M a year than Sheary 10 times out of 10. Rust may score a little less, but he's miles better defensively. He's a more rounded player....one they should keep. But, I also do agree that the Penguins have some guys out of place, or a few guys that are redundant. It's easy for us to say just move Rust to the 4th line.....but, you pay him 3M a year....his numbers are surely going to go down getting only 4th line minutes. He plays a lot on the PK, but that really isn't an opportunity to produce points. So then you ask, why are we paying this guy who was a 35-40 point player, 3M to be a 20-25 point player.

That makes me wonder if a Domi for Rust and a pick type deal is in the works. But acquiring Domi.....you still need to dump a LW somewhere to make room for him.


I don't care about paying a 4th line $10m. When they're on the ice the salary doesn't matter, just individual roles and team winning.

If you have Sprong and Guenztel and Malkins LW under $2m, then the puzzle fits. To me, once they get under the salary cap the individual salaries don't matter except for changes. Hagelin is paid like a 2nd line winger, but is much more valuable as a 4th liner who kills penalties.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Jim on Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:35 am

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/731773

Ok so I admit defeat officially. Pens aren't going to do anything crazy except bolster the D and 4th line.

I was talking to buddy of mine last night (avid Bruins fan) and he said Nick Holden can very well hold down a 3rd line D spot and even 2nd pairing to eat minutes. I heard this and thought aka reduce Letang's minutes.

I tried to make the trade with Arizona somewhat reasonable and what they may look for.

Thoughts welcomed.



The Pens GMs on there are soooooo bad.

Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade all because one click-bait writer said...
Multiple Kovalchuk signings even those Rutherford said that he is not on the radar. No 35 year old guy that hasn't been in the league for 6 seasons... but signing after signing.
Worst of all, the Tavares signings. Tavares is not signing somewhere to be 3C. He is not signing somewhere to be wing. Malkin is not moving to wing.

Garbage GM after garbage GM after garbage GM.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:40 am

Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:The problem is, can you really afford to pay your 4th line 6-10M, depending who is on it? I think Hagelin-Sheahan-Rust would be an excellent 4th line, if we had the forwards above them to push them down to 4th line.....but that would be almost 9-10M on a 4th line. Technically, I guess it wouldn't matter if you are considering ZAR-Brassard-Sprong your starting 3rd line, because it is only a 5M line....so cost wise, it is just reversed.

I'd rather pay Rust 3M a year than Sheary 10 times out of 10. Rust may score a little less, but he's miles better defensively. He's a more rounded player....one they should keep. But, I also do agree that the Penguins have some guys out of place, or a few guys that are redundant. It's easy for us to say just move Rust to the 4th line.....but, you pay him 3M a year....his numbers are surely going to go down getting only 4th line minutes. He plays a lot on the PK, but that really isn't an opportunity to produce points. So then you ask, why are we paying this guy who was a 35-40 point player, 3M to be a 20-25 point player.

That makes me wonder if a Domi for Rust and a pick type deal is in the works. But acquiring Domi.....you still need to dump a LW somewhere to make room for him.


I don't care about paying a 4th line $10m. When they're on the ice the salary doesn't matter, just individual roles and team winning.

If you have Sprong and Guenztel and Malkins LW under $2m, then the puzzle fits. To me, once they get under the salary cap the individual salaries don't matter except for changes. Hagelin is paid like a 2nd line winger, but is much more valuable as a 4th liner who kills penalties.

I know you don't care. I know I don't care......but I'm pretty sure the guys running the team, the owners paying the bills, and the players getting their role reduced DO CARE!
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby ville5 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:53 am

Jim wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/731773

Ok so I admit defeat officially. Pens aren't going to do anything crazy except bolster the D and 4th line.

I was talking to buddy of mine last night (avid Bruins fan) and he said Nick Holden can very well hold down a 3rd line D spot and even 2nd pairing to eat minutes. I heard this and thought aka reduce Letang's minutes.

I tried to make the trade with Arizona somewhat reasonable and what they may look for.

Thoughts welcomed.



The Pens GMs on there are soooooo bad.

Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade all because one click-bait writer said...
Multiple Kovalchuk signings even those Rutherford said that he is not on the radar. No 35 year old guy that hasn't been in the league for 6 seasons... but signing after signing.
Worst of all, the Tavares signings. Tavares is not signing somewhere to be 3C. He is not signing somewhere to be wing. Malkin is not moving to wing.

Garbage GM after garbage GM after garbage GM.

You do realize there are people that enjoy talking player movement. It doesn't matter if it's 100% realistic. It doesn't matter if the numbers match cap wise. It doesn't even matter if there's zero chance of it happening. Go figure.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:53 am

Additional info added to DK's Friday Insider from Chris Bradford:

--Says he spoke to Rutherford yesterday, and one of the main points of interest was that Rutherford doesn't expect to be particularly active July 1st, at the start of free agency. That doesn't mean he won't sign anybody, but Rutherford said there has to be mutual desire for the player to want to come to Pittsburgh. (Translation, don't expect Rutherford to get into bidding wars for players. If a player wants to come here, fits the system, and doesn't expect to break the bank fine. But Rutherford isn't paying 4-5M for a 3M Michael Grabner.)

--No update on Rust negotiations. Rutherford did expect to have offers for Rust, Jarry, Oleksiak, Sprong, Sheahan and Kuhnhackl, likely qualifying offers as a procedural start. Rutherford also said while the cap isn't known yet, he does expect to be right up against it when those players are resigned. (That would leave me to believe the thinking is around the 78-79M mark.)
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Jim on Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:57 am

ville5 wrote:
Jim wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/731773

Ok so I admit defeat officially. Pens aren't going to do anything crazy except bolster the D and 4th line.

I was talking to buddy of mine last night (avid Bruins fan) and he said Nick Holden can very well hold down a 3rd line D spot and even 2nd pairing to eat minutes. I heard this and thought aka reduce Letang's minutes.

I tried to make the trade with Arizona somewhat reasonable and what they may look for.

Thoughts welcomed.



The Pens GMs on there are soooooo bad.

Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade all because one click-bait writer said...
Multiple Kovalchuk signings even those Rutherford said that he is not on the radar. No 35 year old guy that hasn't been in the league for 6 seasons... but signing after signing.
Worst of all, the Tavares signings. Tavares is not signing somewhere to be 3C. He is not signing somewhere to be wing. Malkin is not moving to wing.

Garbage GM after garbage GM after garbage GM.

You do realize there are people that enjoy talking player movement. It doesn't matter if it's 100% realistic. It doesn't matter if the numbers match cap wise. It doesn't even matter if there's zero chance of it happening. Go figure.


I do. Doesn't mean that it isn't dead fish smelling hot garbage though. Nor do you have to push "Publish" on your steaming pile of dung of a GM.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Jim on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:03 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Additional info added to DK's Friday Insider from Chris Bradford:

--Says he spoke to Rutherford yesterday, and one of the main points of interest was that Rutherford doesn't expect to be particularly active July 1st, at the start of free agency. That doesn't mean he won't sign anybody, but Rutherford said there has to be mutual desire for the player to want to come to Pittsburgh. (Translation, don't expect Rutherford to get into bidding wars for players. If a player wants to come here, fits the system, and doesn't expect to break the bank fine. But Rutherford isn't paying 4-5M for a 3M Michael Grabner.)

--No update on Rust negotiations. Rutherford did expect to have offers for Rust, Jarry, Oleksiak, Sprong, Sheahan and Kuhnhackl, likely qualifying offers as a procedural start. Rutherford also said while the cap isn't known yet, he does expect to be right up against it when those players are resigned. (That would leave me to believe the thinking is around the 78-79M mark.)


Kuhnhackl...? That would make 13F with only ZAR waiver exempt. Plus Simon unsigned?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:07 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:I don't care about paying a 4th line $10m. When they're on the ice the salary doesn't matter, just individual roles and team winning.

If you have Sprong and Guenztel and Malkins LW under $2m, then the puzzle fits. To me, once they get under the salary cap the individual salaries don't matter except for changes. Hagelin is paid like a 2nd line winger, but is much more valuable as a 4th liner who kills penalties.


I know you don't care. I know I don't care......but I'm pretty sure the guys running the team, the owners paying the bills, and the players getting their role reduced DO CARE!


It isn't like they're paying the janitor more than a manager, they're paying assets that are pieces of a puzzle. I get what you're saying, but I think the owners would be bottom line people and if Hagelin on the 4th line with 2nd line salary and Sprong on the 2nd line with 4th line salary helps the team win, I think they'd be happy. I think the Penguins owners have shown that they want to win and putting players in a position they don't earn because of their salary is only going to hurt the team.

As for players getting their role reduced, they should care but at the same time they're in that position because of their own productivity. If they don't buy into it, JR can find someone who will.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:10 pm

Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Additional info added to DK's Friday Insider from Chris Bradford:

--Says he spoke to Rutherford yesterday, and one of the main points of interest was that Rutherford doesn't expect to be particularly active July 1st, at the start of free agency. That doesn't mean he won't sign anybody, but Rutherford said there has to be mutual desire for the player to want to come to Pittsburgh. (Translation, don't expect Rutherford to get into bidding wars for players. If a player wants to come here, fits the system, and doesn't expect to break the bank fine. But Rutherford isn't paying 4-5M for a 3M Michael Grabner.)

--No update on Rust negotiations. Rutherford did expect to have offers for Rust, Jarry, Oleksiak, Sprong, Sheahan and Kuhnhackl, likely qualifying offers as a procedural start. Rutherford also said while the cap isn't known yet, he does expect to be right up against it when those players are resigned. (That would leave me to believe the thinking is around the 78-79M mark.)


Kuhnhackl...? That would make 13F with only ZAR waiver exempt. Plus Simon unsigned?

I think Simon was just forgot in the list, but, resigning everyone as Rutherford indicates would give them 14F with only ZAR exempt. That doesn't seem likely to start the season. If Kuhnhackl is a top 12 forward for 82 games next season, I won't be happy. Same goes for Simon.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:17 pm

Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:I don't care about paying a 4th line $10m. When they're on the ice the salary doesn't matter, just individual roles and team winning.

If you have Sprong and Guenztel and Malkins LW under $2m, then the puzzle fits. To me, once they get under the salary cap the individual salaries don't matter except for changes. Hagelin is paid like a 2nd line winger, but is much more valuable as a 4th liner who kills penalties.


I know you don't care. I know I don't care......but I'm pretty sure the guys running the team, the owners paying the bills, and the players getting their role reduced DO CARE!


It isn't like they're paying the janitor more than a manager, they're paying assets that are pieces of a puzzle. I get what you're saying, but I think the owners would be bottom line people and if Hagelin on the 4th line with 2nd line salary and Sprong on the 2nd line with 4th line salary helps the team win, I think they'd be happy. I think the Penguins owners have shown that they want to win and putting players in a position they don't earn because of their salary is only going to hurt the team.

As for players getting their role reduced, they should care but at the same time they're in that position because of their own productivity. If they don't buy into it, JR can find someone who will.

The first part, I can get on board with. I don't think the Penguins will, but a 4th line of Hagelin-Sheahan-Rust is what I would prefer.

The 2nd part, I just don't think it works like that. Sure, the guy is going to take what the team gives him, but guys want to play where they think they deserve to play. That doesn't mean if Sprong thinks he should be 1st line RW it's settled, but guys that have proven themselves and earned it aren't going to stand for being misused/miscast. That's why the whole Tavares to PIT rumors made zero sense. It's nice to talk about how awesome it would be in theory, but Tavares is one of the top centers in the game. Playing 3C is way below his skillset, and just not very realistic. I still have concerns about how happy Brassard will be here, as he dropped a few "well maybe I could move into the top 6 as a wing" lines on cleanout day. The guy has been a 2C his entire career. The reduced role is new for him. Just because the team wants you there and thinks it is best for them, doesn't always mean it will work out the way the team wants. See Kessel, Phil.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:26 pm

ville5 wrote:
Jim wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/731773

Ok so I admit defeat officially. Pens aren't going to do anything crazy except bolster the D and 4th line.

I was talking to buddy of mine last night (avid Bruins fan) and he said Nick Holden can very well hold down a 3rd line D spot and even 2nd pairing to eat minutes. I heard this and thought aka reduce Letang's minutes.

I tried to make the trade with Arizona somewhat reasonable and what they may look for.

Thoughts welcomed.



The Pens GMs on there are soooooo bad.

Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade after Kessel trade all because one click-bait writer said...
Multiple Kovalchuk signings even those Rutherford said that he is not on the radar. No 35 year old guy that hasn't been in the league for 6 seasons... but signing after signing.
Worst of all, the Tavares signings. Tavares is not signing somewhere to be 3C. He is not signing somewhere to be wing. Malkin is not moving to wing.

Garbage GM after garbage GM after garbage GM.

You do realize there are people that enjoy talking player movement. It doesn't matter if it's 100% realistic. It doesn't matter if the numbers match cap wise. It doesn't even matter if there's zero chance of it happening. Go figure.


To go on what Ville5 said, I personally love the capfriendly.com website. As someone who absolutely loves the GM aspect of sports I love the tool. Think Moneyball the movie, one of my all time favorite sports movies. I follow trades/free agent signings in sports I watch as almost a dynamic to each sport and the sports I watch it's handled differently. Also to be honest this is the kind of stuff that creates jobs for people like Ken Rosenthal, Darren Dreger, Bob Mckenzie. Don't get me wrong, they are journalists but the trades and free agency is why most people tune into them. I am also a dual finance major so the idea of playing with numbers and sports is a dream. Being a GM for a team would and is my dream job. I understand it's so hard to get into the business and a lot of times now a days these guys have a finance/law background cause of all the contract/CBA stuff involved.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:31 pm

Also another follow up regarding trade rumors in general, understand a lot of deals that go down especially deadline day are deemed as "last minute" deals. Something comes together that works for both teams. I can only imagine how many more rumors will kick up if league decides to do high end of cap and set it at $82M.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:32 pm

FLPensFan wrote:The 2nd part, I just don't think it works like that. Sure, the guy is going to take what the team gives him, but guys want to play where they think they deserve to play. That doesn't mean if Sprong thinks he should be 1st line RW it's settled, but guys that have proven themselves and earned it aren't going to stand for being misused/miscast. That's why the whole Tavares to PIT rumors made zero sense. It's nice to talk about how awesome it would be in theory, but Tavares is one of the top centers in the game. Playing 3C is way below his skillset, and just not very realistic. I still have concerns about how happy Brassard will be here, as he dropped a few "well maybe I could move into the top 6 as a wing" lines on cleanout day. The guy has been a 2C his entire career. The reduced role is new for him. Just because the team wants you there and thinks it is best for them, doesn't always mean it will work out the way the team wants. See Kessel, Phil.


I think that's where coaching and getting players to buy into the team concept comes in. Sullivan and the staff need to get players on board with their roles and team concept. I know it's not ideal, but no player is greater than the team itself.

Thing is, it should be an easy sell considering Hagelin/Phil/Rust/etc have all played up and down the lineup at various times. Heck, other than Sid/Geno, who hasn't seen all 4 lines over the course of the Sullivan era (not including Sid/Geno double shifting)?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:48 pm

Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:The 2nd part, I just don't think it works like that. Sure, the guy is going to take what the team gives him, but guys want to play where they think they deserve to play. That doesn't mean if Sprong thinks he should be 1st line RW it's settled, but guys that have proven themselves and earned it aren't going to stand for being misused/miscast. That's why the whole Tavares to PIT rumors made zero sense. It's nice to talk about how awesome it would be in theory, but Tavares is one of the top centers in the game. Playing 3C is way below his skillset, and just not very realistic. I still have concerns about how happy Brassard will be here, as he dropped a few "well maybe I could move into the top 6 as a wing" lines on cleanout day. The guy has been a 2C his entire career. The reduced role is new for him. Just because the team wants you there and thinks it is best for them, doesn't always mean it will work out the way the team wants. See Kessel, Phil.


I think that's where coaching and getting players to buy into the team concept comes in. Sullivan and the staff need to get players on board with their roles and team concept. I know it's not ideal, but no player is greater than the team itself.

Thing is, it should be an easy sell considering Hagelin/Phil/Rust/etc have all played up and down the lineup at various times. Heck, other than Sid/Geno, who hasn't seen all 4 lines over the course of the Sullivan era (not including Sid/Geno double shifting)?

There's also a balance between being a greedy selfish player out for themselves, a team player, and a guy willing to hurt his own earning potential. You think it is fair for Rust to go down to a 4th line where maybe his production and ice time may drop by 25%, and then come his next contract he's pegged as a guy only worth 4th line $$ when he was quite capable of playing a top 9 role or limited top 6 minutes.

You think you would be happy at your job if the your boss said, I know it is a position lower than what you are doing now, but we need you to step into role X because we have a whole there, and we need to fill it quickly for the next 6 months. No guarantees that taking that role will improve your standing in the company; likely cutting yourself off from X project or workflows that would improve your standing at the company, maybe even your salary. May just earn you a nice pat on the back....thanks for doing that. We appreciate it.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Malkintent on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:49 pm

The thing is Kessel on the third line has already proven to work and there's no reason to think it wouldn't work again.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:55 pm

Malkintent wrote:The thing is Kessel on the third line has already proven to work and there's no reason to think it wouldn't work again.

Except that Kessel doesn't want to be there. He wants to play higher in the lineup. He wants to pay with higher skilled guys like Malkin, not Sheahan. Maybe he'll be OK with Brassard....except, Brassard made a few subtle hints that he might prefer playing higher in the lineup.

I would also say he is an exception, because he sees #1 PP time, which is a role where you can still produce and put up points. Rust gets little to no PP time, and extra time on the PK isn't helping your value nearly as much as offensive production does.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby LimerickPensFan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:57 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Malkintent wrote:The thing is Kessel on the third line has already proven to work and there's no reason to think it wouldn't work again.

Except that Kessel doesn't want to be there. He wants to play higher in the lineup. He wants to pay with higher skilled guys like Malkin, not Sheahan. Maybe he'll be OK with Brassard....except, Brassard made a few subtle hints that he might prefer playing higher in the lineup.

I would also say he is an exception, because he sees #1 PP time, which is a role where you can still produce and put up points. Rust gets little to no PP time, and extra time on the PK isn't helping your value nearly as much as offensive production does.

DK did a piece where he talked about cutting back on Sid and Geno's time on ice. With Brassard at center, I can see a third line getting more time, which should satisfy Kessel. Whether it actually does is the next question.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Hatrick on Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:40 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
ville5 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:DKs Friday Insider piece matches up a bit with what Yohe said on Madden today. According to DK, he has heard there will be a renewed emphasis on players playing in their proper position. Sullivan didn't seem to care last year. This year, either Rutherford or elsewhere is putting a focus on this. The player probably most effected is Rust, with Hornqvist, Kessel, and Sprong almost certainly ahead of him on the depth chart. This will likely fuel the Rust trade speculation over the next week or two.


Why? On a good team Rust is a bottom six RW. Soon enough Sprong will be on line 2 and Rust line 3. Having him on the 4th with Sheahan is fine for now.

I like Rust on the 3rd line. I just wish he could play a full season and Sully would keep him in 1 spot and line. He's only .07 ppg behind Sheary career-wise and it doesn't seem he's had as much pt with Sid. And he's a better defensive forward, forechecker and more effective in the corners and along the boards than Sheary, imho.


I agree with this , so what do you pay Rust if he's a better all around player than Sheary?

just cause sheary is way overpaid doesn't mean rust should be, personally I see rust around 2.5m give or take a couple hundred k
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:40 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:The 2nd part, I just don't think it works like that. Sure, the guy is going to take what the team gives him, but guys want to play where they think they deserve to play. That doesn't mean if Sprong thinks he should be 1st line RW it's settled, but guys that have proven themselves and earned it aren't going to stand for being misused/miscast. That's why the whole Tavares to PIT rumors made zero sense. It's nice to talk about how awesome it would be in theory, but Tavares is one of the top centers in the game. Playing 3C is way below his skillset, and just not very realistic. I still have concerns about how happy Brassard will be here, as he dropped a few "well maybe I could move into the top 6 as a wing" lines on cleanout day. The guy has been a 2C his entire career. The reduced role is new for him. Just because the team wants you there and thinks it is best for them, doesn't always mean it will work out the way the team wants. See Kessel, Phil.


I think that's where coaching and getting players to buy into the team concept comes in. Sullivan and the staff need to get players on board with their roles and team concept. I know it's not ideal, but no player is greater than the team itself.

Thing is, it should be an easy sell considering Hagelin/Phil/Rust/etc have all played up and down the lineup at various times. Heck, other than Sid/Geno, who hasn't seen all 4 lines over the course of the Sullivan era (not including Sid/Geno double shifting)?

There's also a balance between being a greedy selfish player out for themselves, a team player, and a guy willing to hurt his own earning potential. You think it is fair for Rust to go down to a 4th line where maybe his production and ice time may drop by 25%, and then come his next contract he's pegged as a guy only worth 4th line $$ when he was quite capable of playing a top 9 role or limited top 6 minutes.

You think you would be happy at your job if the your boss said, I know it is a position lower than what you are doing now, but we need you to step into role X because we have a whole there, and we need to fill it quickly for the next 6 months. No guarantees that taking that role will improve your standing in the company; likely cutting yourself off from X project or workflows that would improve your standing at the company, maybe even your salary. May just earn you a nice pat on the back....thanks for doing that. We appreciate it.


I completely agree, BUT Rust's talent dictates 3rd or 4th line. Using your analogy, if I can't handle project X, do I have any right to complain about not doing it?

Rust isn't a 1st or 2nd line player at this point and time. If he improves enough to be Geno's LW (for example) then that would save the team from getting one. If he becomes a legit 1st/2nd line player, there is no way he's on the 4th line. His production is that of a 3rd liner but he isn't better than Hornqvist, Kessel, potentially Sprong. His choices are to become better than any of those 3 or improve as a LW and fill a need. He isn't as good as Guenztel or potentially ZAR, but he is far better than Sheary and Hagelin imo. If he earns a 2nd/3rd LW spot that also improves the team.

Your original thesis was that a 4th line of Hagelin/Sheahan/Rust would be good for depth. The flip side of that is that a 4th line of Hagelin/Sheahan/Rust implies there are 3 better LW/C/RW than those three. If that's the case, they can either improve or accept.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Hatrick on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:00 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:I don't care about paying a 4th line $10m. When they're on the ice the salary doesn't matter, just individual roles and team winning.

If you have Sprong and Guenztel and Malkins LW under $2m, then the puzzle fits. To me, once they get under the salary cap the individual salaries don't matter except for changes. Hagelin is paid like a 2nd line winger, but is much more valuable as a 4th liner who kills penalties.


I know you don't care. I know I don't care......but I'm pretty sure the guys running the team, the owners paying the bills, and the players getting their role reduced DO CARE!


It isn't like they're paying the janitor more than a manager, they're paying assets that are pieces of a puzzle. I get what you're saying, but I think the owners would be bottom line people and if Hagelin on the 4th line with 2nd line salary and Sprong on the 2nd line with 4th line salary helps the team win, I think they'd be happy. I think the Penguins owners have shown that they want to win and putting players in a position they don't earn because of their salary is only going to hurt the team.

As for players getting their role reduced, they should care but at the same time they're in that position because of their own productivity. If they don't buy into it, JR can find someone who will.

The first part, I can get on board with. I don't think the Penguins will, but a 4th line of Hagelin-Sheahan-Rust is what I would prefer.

The 2nd part, I just don't think it works like that. Sure, the guy is going to take what the team gives him, but guys want to play where they think they deserve to play. That doesn't mean if Sprong thinks he should be 1st line RW it's settled, but guys that have proven themselves and earned it aren't going to stand for being misused/miscast. That's why the whole Tavares to PIT rumors made zero sense. It's nice to talk about how awesome it would be in theory, but Tavares is one of the top centers in the game. Playing 3C is way below his skillset, and just not very realistic. I still have concerns about how happy Brassard will be here, as he dropped a few "well maybe I could move into the top 6 as a wing" lines on cleanout day. The guy has been a 2C his entire career. The reduced role is new for him. Just because the team wants you there and thinks it is best for them, doesn't always mean it will work out the way the team wants. See Kessel, Phil.

I think the problems with slotting guys lower is money wise much more than a role wise problem. You cannot afford to pay a 1st line center to play 3rd line center and why any rumors of Tavares make 0 sense. That would be a third of the cap in centers so the theory is gone before even getting into the role discussion.
As for brassard, I am fine with him at 3rd line c or wing (having him at wing also gives a second guy who can take faceoffs in case sid/geno get kicked out) but I really the team would try to roll 4 lines more rather than give sid/geno a ton of minutes. Having Brassard at center allows this to happen more and if kessel does happen to be on the 3rd line then skill wise it would not be a normal 3rd line either(the 2016 cup run especially can be accredited to 3 lines performing great). The only real issue is if the chemistry works, whatever order people are listed on the sheet that night doesn't matter.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Jim on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:07 pm

Hatrick wrote:just cause sheary is way overpaid doesn't mean rust should be, personally I see rust around 2.5m give or take a couple hundred k


Agree. People comment on how bad a contract is... then use it as an example of why player B should get more. Player B shouldn't get more... Player A is just overpaid.

I'm not going to pay $3 for an apple somewhere just because Whole Foods has them for $2.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:09 pm

Hatrick wrote:I think the problems with slotting guys lower is money wise much more than a role wise problem. You cannot afford to pay a 1st line center to play 3rd line center and why any rumors of Tavares make 0 sense. That would be a third of the cap in centers so the theory is gone before even getting into the role discussion.
As for brassard, I am fine with him at 3rd line c or wing (having him at wing also gives a second guy who can take faceoffs in case sid/geno get kicked out) but I really the team would try to roll 4 lines more rather than give sid/geno a ton of minutes. Having Brassard at center allows this to happen more and if kessel does happen to be on the 3rd line then skill wise it would not be a normal 3rd line either(the 2016 cup run especially can be accredited to 3 lines performing great). The only real issue is if the chemistry works, whatever order people are listed on the sheet that night doesn't matter.


I think Tavares, at his age, would ever make sense is if Sid/Geno are in their late 30s and the Pens know they'd be leaving in 1-2 years. Tavares plays on the 3rd line while Sid/Geno's careers are winding down and takes over from there. But for right now, he'd be a 3rd line center for the entire contract and that's a waste for him and the team.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:51 pm

I started a thread in NPR about the Karlsson/Hoffman situation. Bruce Garrioch of Ottawa Citizen interviewed Hoffman and Caryk today, who essentially say they had nothing to do with what they are being accused of, have made multiple attempts to discuss the issue with the Karlssons which have been rejected or unanswered, and the Karlssons have never supplied any proof that Monika Caryk has done what they are accusing her of, even though they have made multiple requests to show proof that Caryk did what they say.

http://www.letsgopens.com/scripts/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68085

Somebody here is lying profusely.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby cojac on Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:10 pm

Scratch Domi off the list, he went to Montreal for Galchenyuk
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:31 am

cojac wrote:Scratch Domi off the list, he went to Montreal for Galchenyuk

Bad deal for Montreal. Domi is a natural center, but I don't think hes the right piece. Great deal for Arizona.
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