2018 Summer Game Plan

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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:30 pm

ville5 wrote:Dumba and Wild- 5 year, $6 million aav. Seems reasonable.


That's a really good deal.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby longtimefan on Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:26 pm

https://www.spectorshockey.net/2018/07/ ... y-21-2018/

Latest chatter about Karlsson, plus a Skinner to Pens mention...

Regarding the trade chatter earlier this month linking Karlsson to the Tampa Bay Lightning, Dallas Stars and Vegas Golden Knights, Friedman doubts it was as close as rumor had it. He said an NHL GM last week told him there’s a sense that Karlsson would prefer remaining an Ottawa Senator but not under the current situation. Friedman sees one holdup being ownership wanting winger Bobby Ryan to be part of the deal. He doesn’t see many teams able to do it.

If Karlsson goes to Tampa Bay, Friedman doesn’t see him getting the eight-year, $11-million extension that Drew Doughty got with the Los Angeles Kings. If he goes to the Stars, it’ll likely be as a rental. He feels the Golden Knights would have more interest in Senators’ forward Mark Stone than Karlsson. Ultimately, Friedman believes we’re in a holding pattern as offers that would entice the Senators pull the trigger aren’t there right now.


When the Chicago Blackhawks last week shipping Marian Hossa’s contract to Arizona, Friedman wondered if they would be looking at Pacioretty. He believes the Canadiens will trade their captain sooner or later. He also notes Skinner is a similar player to Pacioretty and thinks those two are in a holding pattern as well.

Friedman believes teams are looking at those assets and hoping to out-wait Montreal and Carolina in hopes of getting a better deal. He noted the Pittsburgh Penguins had looked at Skinner and wouldn’t be surprised if they have more interest in the Hurricanes’ winger than in Pacioretty.

Friedman also pointed out that Hawks general manager Stan Bowman had hinted he might wait to see how arbitration affects certain teams before making their move and believes they’re not the only team thinking that way.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: Like Karlsson, Pacioretty and Skinner are eligible next summer for UFA status. The Canadiens had a deal in place at the draft that would’ve sent Pacioretty to the Kings but it fell through over lack of agreement on a contract extension. If both players are intent on testing next summer’s UFA market, it effectively makes them rental players for the coming season and could affect their trade value.

Cap Friendly indicates the Penguins’ recent addition of Derek Grant leaves them with just over $1 million in projected cap space. They’d have to shed considerable salary to take on Pacioretty’s $4.5-million cap hit or Skinner’s $5.725-million.

The Blackhawks, however, have over $5.4 million in cap room. Depending on what they’d have to give up, they could have an easier time fitting either guy under their cap ceiling.The Canadiens and Hurricanes would likely want a good young center (hello there, Nick Schmaltz) in return.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby longtimefan on Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:16 pm

stonewizard51 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Jim wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I just find it hard to believe that the Pens are going to play Brassard at LW. You have a guy who you brought in specifically to play 3C so that Sheahan can play 4C. I just don't know why you would mess with that.


but... the Pens didn't win the Cup...


Three main factors for that

1. Letang was awful
2. Phil was hurt
3. Murray was outplayed

I think 2 and 3 work themselves out. I'm not sure on 1, but if he sucks next season IMO we are stuck with him.

Yeah but IMHO we're stuck with him regardless. I can't see anyone short of the Yotes wanting that salary cap addition for someone who, even tho he might have a good year this year, has that for a track record.


I understand how people are upset with Letang, and even understand those who believe they'd be better off without him. I don't agree, but he's very polarizing. However, he's not Bobby Ryan. Dion Phaneuf has a $7M cap hit that's been traded twice. Beyond that, before last season Letang ranked as the 8th best defenseman in the league per NHL Tonight. Even a year which was definitely sub par based on the eye test, he managed to be rated the second most effective defenseman in the league, just behind Burns, and ahead of Karlsson, according to corsica.hockey. https://www.corsicahockey.com/nhl/playe ... s-rankings

He didn't have a good season because the eye test tells the truth in this case. By his admission as well. He's also the guy who scored 67 points in 71 games in 2015-16, and 34 in 41 games before getting hurt in '16-'17. He may or may not bounce back. But you underestimate how the league execs view him. I suspect the reason he's still here is that the Pens view of him is quite different than a large segment of the fan base as well.
Last edited by longtimefan on Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Owchar76 on Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:35 pm

Dana Murzyn? 7 million? What? He retired in 99!

I haven't read the Corsica link yet, but Letang while having a pretty down season, still drives offense well when he's on the ice. It's his stupid blunders 2-3 times a game that haunt him. For the most part, with him on the ice, you're in the offensive zone more often than not. It's the 10 seconds of brainless activity back in the defensive zone that stick out in everyone's mind. The worst part is that it seemed 75% of his screwups ended up in the back of the net, making it even worse.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby longtimefan on Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:44 pm

Owchar76 wrote:Dana Murzyn? 7 million? What? He retired in 99!

I haven't read the Corsica link yet, but Letang while having a pretty down season, still drives offense well when he's on the ice. It's his stupid blunders 2-3 times a game that haunt him. For the most part, with him on the ice, you're in the offensive zone more often than not. It's the 10 seconds of brainless activity back in the defensive zone that stick out in everyone's mind. The worst part is that it seemed 75% of his screwups ended up in the back of the net, making it even worse.


:face: sorry. showing my age. :) I meant Phanauf. Overall, i don't think we disagree on Letang. The blunders killed him last season. When he keeps them to a minimum, he's a very effective player.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Hatrick on Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:27 pm

longtimefan wrote:
stonewizard51 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Jim wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I just find it hard to believe that the Pens are going to play Brassard at LW. You have a guy who you brought in specifically to play 3C so that Sheahan can play 4C. I just don't know why you would mess with that.


but... the Pens didn't win the Cup...


Three main factors for that

1. Letang was awful
2. Phil was hurt
3. Murray was outplayed

I think 2 and 3 work themselves out. I'm not sure on 1, but if he sucks next season IMO we are stuck with him.

Yeah but IMHO we're stuck with him regardless. I can't see anyone short of the Yotes wanting that salary cap addition for someone who, even tho he might have a good year this year, has that for a track record.


I understand how people are upset with Letang, and even understand those who believe they'd be better off without him. I don't agree, but he's very polarizing. However, he's not Bobby Ryan. Dion Phaneuf has a $7M cap hit that's been traded twice. Beyond that, before last season Letang ranked as the 8th best defenseman in the league per NHL Tonight. Even a year which was definitely sub par based on the eye test, he managed to be rated the second most effective defenseman in the league, just behind Burns, and ahead of Karlsson, according to corsica.hockey. https://www.corsicahockey.com/nhl/playe ... s-rankings

He didn't have a good season because the eye test tells the truth in this case. By his admission as well. He's also the guy who scored 67 points in 71 games in 2015-16, and 34 in 41 games before getting hurt in '16-'17. He may or may not bounce back. But you underestimate how the league execs view him. I suspect the reason he's still here is that the Pens view of him is quite different than a large segment of the fan base as well.

there are overreactionary portions of many fanbases, penguins obviously included. Some people would move letang for a bag of pucks if they could, but around the nhl if the pens did want to get rid of him most teams would be interested(doesn't mean many of them could make enough cap room) but the pens would be selling low so not as many teams would meet the demands of a reasonable deal in return so the pens if they were ever gonna trade him it would not be at his lowest point, they obviously think he can rebound this coming season at least somewhat and either continue with the penguins after that or have him back to closer to normal so they can get a reasonable deal in return rather than selling him off for a pick like they could easily do now if they wanted him gone like some fans do.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby stonewizard51 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:31 pm

This is pure speculation on my part but :

I wouldn't move him for a bag of pucks nor would I sell him off to the lowest bidder. He has his moments of pure brilliance on the ice and the next game he forgets how to play defense. He's not the best at running a PP and since he's more offense minded he's not the best at staying on the blueline. His paring partner has to be a stay at home type.

Since he does have a modified NMC, I'm guessing the teams he picked he wouldn't be traded to are ones with large amount of available cap space knowing other teams would have to shed a boat load of cap to take him and they most likely would be against weakening the team just to bring him on board.

Also IMHO he hasn't been the same since he had the stroke. Yeah there have been those of injuries but the stroke didn't help matters to start with. I would really love to eat crow over him and hope he has a major turn around this season.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby DelPen on Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:10 am

I’m more concerned about Murray long term than Letang.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Puck-Lurker on Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:46 am

The rest of our D has a tendency to sink when swimming is required too. When Letang fumbles, Dumo starts to mess up as well for instance
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby LimerickPensFan on Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:36 am

DelPen wrote:I’m more concerned about Murray long term than Letang.

This. Far and away. I've never been convinced Murray was a really good goalie.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:39 am

LimerickPensFan wrote:
DelPen wrote:I’m more concerned about Murray long term than Letang.

This. Far and away. I've never been convinced Murray was a really good goalie.


Thing with Murray, he had little pressure at all until this past season. Not to say the cup finals aren't pressure, but he always had Fleury on the bench and I think that allowed him to play as pressure free as possible. Last season was Murray's first as being the guy. I think without Fleury, Murray didn't handle the pressure of being the number one goalie. Not to mention his father's passing and various injuries.

I think this is a make or break year for him. Even if he gets hurt, he needs to prove he is a long term option at goalie and prove he can handle being the number one guy. I think Jarry can handle being the number one guy and would be able to step in nicely if Murray falters.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Pitts on Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:50 pm

Spoiler:
Daniel wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
DelPen wrote:I’m more concerned about Murray long term than Letang.

This. Far and away. I've never been convinced Murray was a really good goalie.


Thing with Murray, he had little pressure at all until this past season. Not to say the cup finals aren't pressure, but he always had Fleury on the bench and I think that allowed him to play as pressure free as possible. Last season was Murray's first as being the guy. I think without Fleury, Murray didn't handle the pressure of being the number one goalie. Not to mention his father's passing and various injuries.

I think this is a make or break year for him. Even if he gets hurt, he needs to prove he is a long term option at goalie and prove he can handle being the number one guy.
Daniel wrote:I think Jarry can handle being the number one guy and would be able to step in nicely if Murray falters.

And this is exactly why Jarry should not be traded at least for this upcoming season.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby RentedMule66 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:50 pm

Daniel wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
DelPen wrote:I’m more concerned about Murray long term than Letang.

This. Far and away. I've never been convinced Murray was a really good goalie.


Thing with Murray, he had little pressure at all until this past season. Not to say the cup finals aren't pressure, but he always had Fleury on the bench and I think that allowed him to play as pressure free as possible. Last season was Murray's first as being the guy. I think without Fleury, Murray didn't handle the pressure of being the number one goalie. Not to mention his father's passing and various injuries.

I think this is a make or break year for him. Even if he gets hurt, he needs to prove he is a long term option at goalie and prove he can handle being the number one guy. I think Jarry can handle being the number one guy and would be able to step in nicely if Murray falters.



I'm not a big Murray fan and he didn't have a great year last year, but he is playoff proven and won 2 cups. I'm not sure how you can say Jarry would be able to step in and be a number 1 goalie with his small sample size. Like it or not this is Murrays team for the foreseeable future and I don't think this is a make or break year for him.... just my opinion.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby LimerickPensFan on Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:59 pm

RentedMule66 wrote:
Daniel wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
DelPen wrote:I’m more concerned about Murray long term than Letang.

This. Far and away. I've never been convinced Murray was a really good goalie.


Thing with Murray, he had little pressure at all until this past season. Not to say the cup finals aren't pressure, but he always had Fleury on the bench and I think that allowed him to play as pressure free as possible. Last season was Murray's first as being the guy. I think without Fleury, Murray didn't handle the pressure of being the number one goalie. Not to mention his father's passing and various injuries.

I think this is a make or break year for him. Even if he gets hurt, he needs to prove he is a long term option at goalie and prove he can handle being the number one guy. I think Jarry can handle being the number one guy and would be able to step in nicely if Murray falters.



I'm not a big Murray fan and he didn't have a great year last year, but he is playoff proven and won 2 cups. I'm not sure how you can say Jarry would be able to step in and be a number 1 goalie with his small sample size. Like it or not this is Murrays team for the foreseeable future and I don't think this is a make or break year for him.... just my opinion.

I just think he has shown serious flaws, even when he was winning the cups. The first year, he was definitely vulnerable short-side on his stick side. The last two years, his glove has been questionable at best. I'm hoping he's been spending this last summer working on his glove hand.

I agree with you that it's unlikely for anyone to unseat Murray, at least while Sullivan in coach. I'd love to see more of Jarry, though, as I think he could be a better goalie long-term, although I agree with you that he hasn't played enough yet to make that determination.

On a less concrete front, Murray seems to be only about 50-50 on making that impact save. Think Fleury against Ovi on a breakaway. That save that turns around a game.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:36 pm

RentedMule66 wrote:
Daniel wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
DelPen wrote:I’m more concerned about Murray long term than Letang.

This. Far and away. I've never been convinced Murray was a really good goalie.


Thing with Murray, he had little pressure at all until this past season. Not to say the cup finals aren't pressure, but he always had Fleury on the bench and I think that allowed him to play as pressure free as possible. Last season was Murray's first as being the guy. I think without Fleury, Murray didn't handle the pressure of being the number one goalie. Not to mention his father's passing and various injuries.

I think this is a make or break year for him. Even if he gets hurt, he needs to prove he is a long term option at goalie and prove he can handle being the number one guy. I think Jarry can handle being the number one guy and would be able to step in nicely if Murray falters.



I'm not a big Murray fan and he didn't have a great year last year, but he is playoff proven and won 2 cups. I'm not sure how you can say Jarry would be able to step in and be a number 1 goalie with his small sample size. Like it or not this is Murrays team for the foreseeable future and I don't think this is a make or break year for him.... just my opinion.


Jarry does have a small sample size, but he has the pedigree and has won a Memorial Cup. Granted that isn't the Stanley Cup, but I think he has Murray's demeanor and is more talented overall. I don't think he's far better, but I think he plays the puck better, better glove hand. He's pretty good positionally, though not as good as Murray. Just overall, I think he's got the better skill. Now how that translates into a 15 year NHL career remains to be seen.

Is Murray a proven playoff performer, or is he a proven playoff performer with Fleury as a safety net? I think he can be and last year was not the norm, but it still remains to be seen if he can have the same success without Fleury. I don't think we can underestimate how much Fleury meant to the team and the goaltending position.
Last edited by Daniel on Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby sil on Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:36 pm

Too bad Fleury went 0/100 (as opposed to 100/0, or even 50/50) between 2010 and 2015. :slug:
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:40 pm

sil wrote:Too bad Fleury went 0/100 (as opposed to 100/0, or even 50/50) between 2010 and 2015. :slug:


As bad as Fleury was, I think he was just a microcosm of the team overall. I think they lacked discipline and composure and were poorly coached. Only so much a goalie can do when the rest of the team is too busy whining over playing hockey and a coach too busy trying to "get to our game" at the expense of the game itself.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby longtimefan on Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:37 pm

This is certainly not a make or break season for Matt Murray. I also don't believe they should trade Jarry. They are both good, young, talented goalies who have excelled at every level. Jarry is the more dynamic and athletic of the two, and was the higher pick. Goaltenders are a different breed though, and there aren't many 1st rounders like other positions. Murray has earned the job unless he loses it, which I personally don't expect. Murray is two months older than Vasilevsky. They are the two youngest starters in the league. Murray can still say that, even with two Cups.

Matt Murray was under a .920 save percentage for the first time since his second to last season in juniors. Before coming to the NHL, he set shutout records in the AHL. He has not proven he can play more than fifty games yet, but that's really the only back mark. Before last season. Personally, I think he'll be fine.

There's lots of reasons for his up and down season. I believe the biggest reason might be very personal and human. He happily celebrated the cup on the ice last June with his father. Apparently, with everything going well. So as a 23 year old kid, sometime between that night in Nashville and January, something changed dramatically in his life. He lost his Dad. I think it affected his entire season. His only real hot spell came after he came back after the funeral until the day of the deadline, when he was concussed in practice. I expect the kid will be fine. I give him a pass for last season. I lost my father at a young age. It's not easy at any age.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby LimerickPensFan on Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:54 pm

longtimefan wrote:This is certainly not a make or break season for Matt Murray. I also don't believe they should trade Jarry. They are both good, young, talented goalies who have excelled at every level. Jarry is the more dynamic and athletic of the two, and was the higher pick. Goaltenders are a different breed though, and there aren't many 1st rounders like other positions. Murray has earned the job unless he loses it, which I personally don't expect. Murray is two months older than Vasilevsky. They are the two youngest starters in the league. Murray can still say that, even with two Cups.

Matt Murray was under a .920 save percentage for the first time since his second to last season in juniors. Before coming to the NHL, he set shutout records in the AHL. He has not proven he can play more than fifty games yet, but that's really the only back mark. Before last season. Personally, I think he'll be fine.

There's lots of reasons for his up and down season. I believe the biggest reason might be very personal and human. He happily celebrated the cup on the ice last June with his father. Apparently, with everything going well. So as a 23 year old kid, sometime between that night in Nashville and January, something changed dramatically in his life. He lost his Dad. I think it affected his entire season. His only real hot spell came after he came back after the funeral until the day of the deadline, when he was concussed in practice. I expect the kid will be fine. I give him a pass for last season. I lost my father at a young age. It's not easy at any age.

The thing is, he played better when he came back after his father died - probably his best play all season. It was when he came back after the concussion toward the end of the season where he didn't play as well. I'd be willing to discuss a delayed effect of his father dying, really hitting home while he was out with the concussion, but the eye test says that his father's death really didn't have an effect.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Cow_Master66 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:55 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:
DelPen wrote:I’m more concerned about Murray long term than Letang.

This. Far and away. I've never been convinced Murray was a really good goalie.


My first thought is to ask why this is a concern, but after taking a second, I realize what a good spot we are in...If Matt Murray, who has arguably been the best goalie at any level of hockey over the past 5 years is our biggest concern, we should be good. :fist:

Arguably mind you...I know, worst glove hand in the league, a walking injury waiting to happen, yada yada...He had a bad stretch last year that may have very well been caused by personal tragedy away from the rink and had nothing to do with anything on the ice. Why don't we wait and and see how things look this year before we concern ourselves with our 24yo, 2 time SC winning goalie which any GM in the league would kill for.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Great58 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:05 pm

Daniel wrote:Thing with Murray, he had little pressure at all until this past season. Not to say the cup finals aren't pressure, but he always had Fleury on the bench and I think that allowed him to play as pressure free as possible.

IANAG (I am not a goalie), but I think the last thing a young goalie feels when there is veteran, Cup-winning back-up on the bench, is less pressure.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:34 pm

Great58 wrote:
Daniel wrote:Thing with Murray, he had little pressure at all until this past season. Not to say the cup finals aren't pressure, but he always had Fleury on the bench and I think that allowed him to play as pressure free as possible.

IANAG (I am not a goalie), but I think the last thing a young goalie feels when there is veteran, Cup-winning back-up on the bench, is less pressure.


I am also not a goalie, but I think Fleury was a calming influence and Murray was just able to relax and play his game and knew he had a safety net if needed. Fleury would have also pushed him to be better. Last season, he had no safety net and had to sink or swim on his own. I think this season he'll come in and know what to expect as the undisputed starter and "veteran presence".
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:42 pm

longtimefan wrote:This is certainly not a make or break season for Matt Murray. I also don't believe they should trade Jarry. They are both good, young, talented goalies who have excelled at every level. Jarry is the more dynamic and athletic of the two, and was the higher pick. Goaltenders are a different breed though, and there aren't many 1st rounders like other positions. Murray has earned the job unless he loses it, which I personally don't expect. Murray is two months older than Vasilevsky. They are the two youngest starters in the league. Murray can still say that, even with two Cups.


The Penguins will need to trade Murray or Jarry within the next couple of seasons or they start to devalue. I think this is a make or break year for Murray because he needs to eventually prove that he can play an entire season. He has never played more than 49 games in the NHL or AHL and I think the Pens will lose patience with him if he continues this pattern.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Caputi19 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:53 pm

If and when Seattle or any other nhl team comes in....Pens will have to pick which goalie to keep. If they decide 2020 realistically this would be Murray's make or break year in a Pens uniform. Ive always said Murray is glass with a bad glove. He has yet to prove he can be the guy here. I hope he figured it out and Pens win more hardware but only time will tell.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby LimerickPensFan on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:55 pm

Caputi19 wrote:If and when Seattle or any other nhl team comes in....Pens will have to pick which goalie to keep. If they decide 2020 realistically this would be Murray's make or break year in a Pens uniform. Ive always said Murray is glass with a bad glove. He has yet to prove he can be the guy here. I hope he figured it out and Pens win more hardware but only time will tell.

Not sure that Jarry would be high on the list of picks for an expansion team unless he plays a whole lot this year. Prospect goalies are a dime a dozen. If we had two goalies with reasonable experience at an NHL level, I'd be worried.

We may not even see Jarry in Pittsburgh, though. Unless Murray gets a long-term injury, the Pens may keep DeSmith up and let Jarry get some actual playing time in WBS.
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