2018 Summer Game Plan

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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Mon May 14, 2018 2:44 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:If there is even a 1% change Tavares would sign here, JR would be insane not to go full court press on this thing. Have Mario fly him in on July 1st with Sid and Geno on the plane.

I don't doubt Tavares talent, but, I think Tavares on the Penguins is a waste of cap space and would work out horribly.

We have Crosby and Malkin as 1C and 2C. I just don't see Tavares being a fit. And if you do manage to get him as your 3C, you can be sure you aren't going to get the same level of production out of him when you have to play him 3-5 minutes less every night than what he averaged in NY. Also add in the fact that all that cap hit would take away from where the Penguins really need upgrades, bottom pair defense and LW.

It just makes zero sense. To me, it's like going out and trading for Carey Price and Henrik Lundqvist in their prime. You can't play them both.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby pens_CT on Mon May 14, 2018 2:46 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:If there is even a 1% change Tavares would sign here, JR would be insane not to go full court press on this thing. Have Mario fly him in on July 1st with Sid and Geno on the plane.

I don't doubt Tavares talent, but, I think Tavares on the Penguins is a waste of cap space and would work out horribly.

We have Crosby and Malkin as 1C and 2C. I just don't see Tavares being a fit. And if you do manage to get him as your 3C, you can be sure you aren't going to get the same level of production out of him when you have to play him 3-5 minutes less every night than what he averaged in NY. Also add in the fact that all that cap hit would take away from where the Penguins really need upgrades, bottom pair defense and LW.

It just makes zero sense. To me, it's like going out and trading for Carey Price and Henrik Lundqvist in their prime. You can't play them both.


The only way it makes sense is if they plan to move Sid or Geno to wing. Otherwise why pay that kind of money for a 3rd line center.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Jim on Mon May 14, 2018 2:47 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
dark_forces wrote:Anyone have insight into the latest TIOPS article?

It is chalk full of :face: :face: :face: :face: :face: :face:

There are essentially 2 pieces to it. Kessel and Tavares.

On Kessel:
- "Sources" tell TIOPS the coaching staff is at the point where if Kessel isn't producing 5on5, he's a detriment to the lineup because of his inability to do things away from the puck.
- Says Pittsburgh had some serious trade talks with Calgary last summer regarding Kessel.
- Says it is no secret around the league Pittsburgh will entertain offers for him this summer.
- Elliotte Friedman essentially said Sullivan's comments were like driving a city bus over Kessel, with how he said he wasn't injured or injuries were minor.
- Says it will be difficult because Kessel has only an 8 team trade list, and his camp often makes a list of teams right up against the cap....teams that either can't afford him or don't want him.
- According to an NHL Eastern Conference exec TIOPS spoke to "The guys is greatly undervalued. It's hard to find players out there with that skill, goal scoring touch."
- Same exec then went on to say "Our coaches would not want him." alluding to him being difficult to coach and his lack of ability in other areas.

On Tavares:
- Says a big reason Kessel and Letang's names are floating out on the trade block rumors is because of Tavares.
- TIOPS says Penguins had intel around All-Star break that Tavares would be willing to meet with the Penguins in June, regarding his availability, if the Pens had the flexibility to make it work.
- That was before Brassard acquired and Hornqvist extension came about, but says that won't stop Rutherford in showing interest.
- Says Pittsburgh isn't basing their offseason on Tavares, but they are gathering more intel as to whether they will get to talk with him this summer.
- Goal would be to meet with Tavares camp, pitch something they think they could pull off to open up cap space needed for Tavares, and gauge interest from there.


Is TIOPS an offshoot of the Onion?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Pitts on Mon May 14, 2018 2:49 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:If there is even a 1% change Tavares would sign here, JR would be insane not to go full court press on this thing. Have Mario fly him in on July 1st with Sid and Geno on the plane.

I don't doubt Tavares talent, but, I think Tavares on the Penguins is a waste of cap space and would work out horribly.

We have Crosby and Malkin as 1C and 2C. I just don't see Tavares being a fit. And if you do manage to get him as your 3C, you can be sure you aren't going to get the same level of production out of him when you have to play him 3-5 minutes less every night than what he averaged in NY. Also add in the fact that all that cap hit would take away from where the Penguins really need upgrades, bottom pair defense and LW.

It just makes zero sense. To me, it's like going out and trading for Carey Price and Henrik Lundqvist in their prime. You can't play them both.

Seriously, why is this even a thought?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Pitts on Mon May 14, 2018 2:54 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I really don't know if they will do it, but mentally I'm already past Kessel being here. Can't take another season seeing fat Phil do nothing on the ice except feed off PP time with Geno and Sid. Sully has to be done with him.

HUH?? WTF? He had his best statistical season in ages! he had a sub-par playoff for the first time in his life! He carried the team in scoring when Sid and Geno were AWOL. LOL.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby lemieuxReturns on Mon May 14, 2018 2:59 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:If there is even a 1% change Tavares would sign here, JR would be insane not to go full court press on this thing. Have Mario fly him in on July 1st with Sid and Geno on the plane.

I don't doubt Tavares talent, but, I think Tavares on the Penguins is a waste of cap space and would work out horribly.

We have Crosby and Malkin as 1C and 2C. I just don't see Tavares being a fit. And if you do manage to get him as your 3C, you can be sure you aren't going to get the same level of production out of him when you have to play him 3-5 minutes less every night than what he averaged in NY. Also add in the fact that all that cap hit would take away from where the Penguins really need upgrades, bottom pair defense and LW.

It just makes zero sense. To me, it's like going out and trading for Carey Price and Henrik Lundqvist in their prime. You can't play them both.


I don't necessarily agree. If you have Tavares at 3C with Kessel (not sure the money works) that is just another #1 line on our team. Sully would have 3 legit #1 lines and would just roll them. It may be a little less time that Tavares is accustomed to but it would also help relieve Sid and Geno from playing 23+ minutes every night during the regular season. JR made a huge mistake not taking care of the 3C position last summer thinking he would take care of it during the season. The result was hard minutes for Sid and Geno early in the season. We now have Sheahan and Brassard, but neither of those guys is Tavares.

Maybe have a guy like Tavares would be a problem on a team like LA or Chicago but in Pittsburgh each player seems willing to give up their ego for the better of the team. I believe Tavares is looking for a chance to win; not money. If money was his goal, he could sign on the island for max. If safety was the goal, he could sign on the island for one extra year. I am a true believer in 'where there is smoke there is fire'. If EF is reporting Pittsburgh, it is not because he pulled a name out of a hat. There is something to it. To blow off the idea because we already have Sid and Geno is also not a fair idea. Who cares? Both Sid and Geno are the kind of players that would volunteer less minutes in order to allow for a player like Tavares to join the group.

My point is let's not dismiss it enitirely. We could keep the entirely same team and swap out Letang's cap for Tavares and call it a day. I would do that in a hearbeat.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby lemieuxReturns on Mon May 14, 2018 3:00 pm

Pitts wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I really don't know if they will do it, but mentally I'm already past Kessel being here. Can't take another season seeing fat Phil do nothing on the ice except feed off PP time with Geno and Sid. Sully has to be done with him.

HUH?? WTF? He had his best statistical season in ages! he had a sub-par playoff for the first time in his life! He carried the team in scoring when Sid and Geno were AWOL. LOL.


Not best in ages. Best ever!
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Mon May 14, 2018 3:14 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
Pitts wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I really don't know if they will do it, but mentally I'm already past Kessel being here. Can't take another season seeing fat Phil do nothing on the ice except feed off PP time with Geno and Sid. Sully has to be done with him.

HUH?? WTF? He had his best statistical season in ages! he had a sub-par playoff for the first time in his life! He carried the team in scoring when Sid and Geno were AWOL. LOL.


Not best in ages. Best ever!


You are 100% right. So, no better time to sell than now. Gotta be a few teams who will pay a great price for him. I believe that JR is keeping the phones open.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Antonio on Mon May 14, 2018 3:26 pm

Anyone who argues that Phil should be gone because he's lazy, did nothing in playoffs, etc is insane. Now if you argue he had the best season in his career and his value should be very high, and is aging so better to sell high ..I can understand. I don't want to move him but at least that argument has justifiable merit. The other stuff is just absurd stupidity. Guy puts up 90 points and he's a bum. Oh brother. If playoff performance is why you want him moved, call me after you move Letang then Murray, then trade to get both of them back, then waive them, then move Sheary, Malkin, brassard, Sheahan, rust, etc.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Mon May 14, 2018 3:32 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:If there is even a 1% change Tavares would sign here, JR would be insane not to go full court press on this thing. Have Mario fly him in on July 1st with Sid and Geno on the plane.

I don't doubt Tavares talent, but, I think Tavares on the Penguins is a waste of cap space and would work out horribly.

We have Crosby and Malkin as 1C and 2C. I just don't see Tavares being a fit. And if you do manage to get him as your 3C, you can be sure you aren't going to get the same level of production out of him when you have to play him 3-5 minutes less every night than what he averaged in NY. Also add in the fact that all that cap hit would take away from where the Penguins really need upgrades, bottom pair defense and LW.

It just makes zero sense. To me, it's like going out and trading for Carey Price and Henrik Lundqvist in their prime. You can't play them both.


I don't necessarily agree. If you have Tavares at 3C with Kessel (not sure the money works) that is just another #1 line on our team. Sully would have 3 legit #1 lines and would just roll them. It may be a little less time that Tavares is accustomed to but it would also help relieve Sid and Geno from playing 23+ minutes every night during the regular season. JR made a huge mistake not taking care of the 3C position last summer thinking he would take care of it during the season. The result was hard minutes for Sid and Geno early in the season. We now have Sheahan and Brassard, but neither of those guys is Tavares.

Maybe have a guy like Tavares would be a problem on a team like LA or Chicago but in Pittsburgh each player seems willing to give up their ego for the better of the team. I believe Tavares is looking for a chance to win; not money. If money was his goal, he could sign on the island for max. If safety was the goal, he could sign on the island for one extra year. I am a true believer in 'where there is smoke there is fire'. If EF is reporting Pittsburgh, it is not because he pulled a name out of a hat. There is something to it. To blow off the idea because we already have Sid and Geno is also not a fair idea. Who cares? Both Sid and Geno are the kind of players that would volunteer less minutes in order to allow for a player like Tavares to join the group.

My point is let's not dismiss it enitirely. We could keep the entirely same team and swap out Letang's cap for Tavares and call it a day. I would do that in a hearbeat.

It's not ego though, it's playing time, it's position, it's place on the team. Crosby isn't going to put up Crosby-level numbers if you give him 4th line minutes....even 3rd line minutes.

John Tavares has been one of the most underpaid player in the league. The guy just finished a 6 year deal with a cap hit of 5.5M. He's in the top 10 of career points per game average of active players, behind Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, and Patrick Kane. Look at the contracts of all of those guys compared to Tavares. Maybe Tavares doesn't force the issue and ask for a 10-12M contract, but I can't see Tavares getting anything less than 8M a season, and that is the low end of the scale.

Again, it has nothing to do with his skill level or not wanting him here. Crosby and Malkin are #1 centers on any team in the league. So is Tavares. I can't see any scenario where that works for the Penguins without creating gaping holes in other areas of the roster.

I have no doubt there was maybe some talk about this, but, I have a very, very strong feeling that Rutherford was inquiring about Tavares for this past season. That would have made a ton of sense. My gut tells me he checked in with the Isles about possibly acquiring him as a rental. That would be the only case where this makes sense. Penguins in strong need for a 3C, Isles are out of the playoff picture, Rutherford asks Snow if he would be willing to move Tavares at the deadline, giving Tavares a shot at a Cup. Tavares would have only cost 500K more than Brassard with no cap hit next year. Isles could have easily retained salary for the rest of this year to make it work.

That makes sense. It didn't happen. Rutherford moves onto and lands Brassard.

I cannot fathom a scenario where getting John Tavares for this team makes sense, unless you are trading away Kessel, Hornqvist, and Hagelin, and are willing to go with Guetnzel, Rust, Sprong, ZAR.....cheap winger options.....throughout the lineup. That would be the definition of sacrificing the good of the team over the next several years for 1 or 2 years of TRYING to win a Cup. I don't think Rutherford is that stupid.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Pitts on Mon May 14, 2018 3:58 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:
Pitts wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I really don't know if they will do it, but mentally I'm already past Kessel being here. Can't take another season seeing fat Phil do nothing on the ice except feed off PP time with Geno and Sid. Sully has to be done with him.

HUH?? WTF? He had his best statistical season in ages! he had a sub-par playoff for the first time in his life! He carried the team in scoring when Sid and Geno were AWOL. LOL.


Not best in ages. Best ever!


You are 100% right. So, no better time to sell than now. Gotta be a few teams who will pay a great price for him. I believe that JR is keeping the phones open.

I actually don't disagree with this. I said right after the playoffs, I have an odd feeling they may be thinking of moving Phil, possibly at the draft. Would get into the first round and relieve some extra cap space to reload the team up front.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby interstorm on Mon May 14, 2018 4:03 pm

FLPensFan wrote:I cannot fathom a scenario where getting John Tavares for this team makes sense, unless you are trading away Kessel, Hornqvist, and Hagelin, and are willing to go with Guetnzel, Rust, Sprong, ZAR.....cheap winger options.....throughout the lineup. That would be the definition of sacrificing the good of the team over the next several years for 1 or 2 years of TRYING to win a Cup. I don't think Rutherford is that stupid.


I don't think it is likely but I also don't think it is necessarily foolish. Let's have an honest referendum on Jake Guentzel. Kid has been lights out the last 2 playoffs and a wonderful addition to the team. But is he an extension of Crosby or is he that good on his own? If you believe that Sid does a fair amount to draw coverage, make plays and increase Guentzel's effectiveness by a wide margin...then couldn't Tavares likewise increase his winger's stats and thus allow for less spend at LW/RW if necessary (and yes, while nobody is Sid, Tavares theoretically would be player against lower D-men)? Could ZAR be the Guentzel for Tavares?

A lot of guesswork but as I stated in my post a couple pages back, if the Penguins believe the formula to winning is to have 3 dominant lines that can come shift after shift to overwhelm a team, is Tavares not the best way to achieve that? Should it cause us to lose skill on the wings somewhat -- does it matter?

Just saying that while this most certainly is a pipe dream -- I don't think it comes without merit.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby lemieuxReturns on Mon May 14, 2018 4:16 pm

interstorm wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I cannot fathom a scenario where getting John Tavares for this team makes sense, unless you are trading away Kessel, Hornqvist, and Hagelin, and are willing to go with Guetnzel, Rust, Sprong, ZAR.....cheap winger options.....throughout the lineup. That would be the definition of sacrificing the good of the team over the next several years for 1 or 2 years of TRYING to win a Cup. I don't think Rutherford is that stupid.


I don't think it is likely but I also don't think it is necessarily foolish. Let's have an honest referendum on Jake Guentzel. Kid has been lights out the last 2 playoffs and a wonderful addition to the team. But is he an extension of Crosby or is he that good on his own? If you believe that Sid does a fair amount to draw coverage, make plays and increase Guentzel's effectiveness by a wide margin...then couldn't Tavares likewise increase his winger's stats and thus allow for less spend at LW/RW if necessary (and yes, while nobody is Sid, Tavares theoretically would be player against lower D-men)? Could ZAR be the Guentzel for Tavares?

A lot of guesswork but as I stated in my post a couple pages back, if the Penguins believe the formula to winning is to have 3 dominant lines that can come shift after shift to overwhelm a team, is Tavares not the best way to achieve that? Should it cause us to lose skill on the wings somewhat -- does it matter?

Just saying that while this most certainly is a pipe dream -- I don't think it comes without merit.



Yes. I agree. Someone is going to get the 3C role next season. Why not Tavares if he wants it. No one is coming here thinking that Sid and Geno are not the 1 and 2 Centers. If he comes here it would be under no false pretenses. Just the idea that Sid and Geno would be going into the playoffs next season having an average ice time of less than 20 minutes is refreshing.

Not to mention this was the first season in which both Sid and Geno actually stayed healthy during the season. Having Tavares would be an embarrasment of riches.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby pens_CT on Mon May 14, 2018 4:34 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
interstorm wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I cannot fathom a scenario where getting John Tavares for this team makes sense, unless you are trading away Kessel, Hornqvist, and Hagelin, and are willing to go with Guetnzel, Rust, Sprong, ZAR.....cheap winger options.....throughout the lineup. That would be the definition of sacrificing the good of the team over the next several years for 1 or 2 years of TRYING to win a Cup. I don't think Rutherford is that stupid.


I don't think it is likely but I also don't think it is necessarily foolish. Let's have an honest referendum on Jake Guentzel. Kid has been lights out the last 2 playoffs and a wonderful addition to the team. But is he an extension of Crosby or is he that good on his own? If you believe that Sid does a fair amount to draw coverage, make plays and increase Guentzel's effectiveness by a wide margin...then couldn't Tavares likewise increase his winger's stats and thus allow for less spend at LW/RW if necessary (and yes, while nobody is Sid, Tavares theoretically would be player against lower D-men)? Could ZAR be the Guentzel for Tavares?

A lot of guesswork but as I stated in my post a couple pages back, if the Penguins believe the formula to winning is to have 3 dominant lines that can come shift after shift to overwhelm a team, is Tavares not the best way to achieve that? Should it cause us to lose skill on the wings somewhat -- does it matter?

Just saying that while this most certainly is a pipe dream -- I don't think it comes without merit.



Yes. I agree. Someone is going to get the 3C role next season. Why not Tavares if he wants it. No one is coming here thinking that Sid and Geno are not the 1 and 2 Centers. If he comes here it would be under no false pretenses. Just the idea that Sid and Geno would be going into the playoffs next season having an average ice time of less than 20 minutes is refreshing.

Not to mention this was the first season in which both Sid and Geno actually stayed healthy during the season. Having Tavares would be an embarrasment of riches.


More appropriately it's gong back to the Shero model of having elite talent at center and getting cheap players to play on the wing. Except for 2009 that model didn't work out all that well.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby interstorm on Mon May 14, 2018 4:47 pm

pens_CT wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:
interstorm wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I cannot fathom a scenario where getting John Tavares for this team makes sense, unless you are trading away Kessel, Hornqvist, and Hagelin, and are willing to go with Guetnzel, Rust, Sprong, ZAR.....cheap winger options.....throughout the lineup. That would be the definition of sacrificing the good of the team over the next several years for 1 or 2 years of TRYING to win a Cup. I don't think Rutherford is that stupid.


I don't think it is likely but I also don't think it is necessarily foolish. Let's have an honest referendum on Jake Guentzel. Kid has been lights out the last 2 playoffs and a wonderful addition to the team. But is he an extension of Crosby or is he that good on his own? If you believe that Sid does a fair amount to draw coverage, make plays and increase Guentzel's effectiveness by a wide margin...then couldn't Tavares likewise increase his winger's stats and thus allow for less spend at LW/RW if necessary (and yes, while nobody is Sid, Tavares theoretically would be player against lower D-men)? Could ZAR be the Guentzel for Tavares?

A lot of guesswork but as I stated in my post a couple pages back, if the Penguins believe the formula to winning is to have 3 dominant lines that can come shift after shift to overwhelm a team, is Tavares not the best way to achieve that? Should it cause us to lose skill on the wings somewhat -- does it matter?

Just saying that while this most certainly is a pipe dream -- I don't think it comes without merit.



Yes. I agree. Someone is going to get the 3C role next season. Why not Tavares if he wants it. No one is coming here thinking that Sid and Geno are not the 1 and 2 Centers. If he comes here it would be under no false pretenses. Just the idea that Sid and Geno would be going into the playoffs next season having an average ice time of less than 20 minutes is refreshing.

Not to mention this was the first season in which both Sid and Geno actually stayed healthy during the season. Having Tavares would be an embarrasment of riches.


More appropriately it's gong back to the Shero model of having elite talent at center and getting cheap players to play on the wing. Except for 2009 that model didn't work out all that well.


Aside from Kessel and Hornqvist, the '17 and '16 Pens didn't have loads of talent on the wings. Guys like Kunitz are more grinders with some skill (and grest centers to play with). I think all the Tavares talk is focused on these last 2 teams, not anything Shero did.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby pronovost19 on Mon May 14, 2018 8:31 pm

:pop:
Totally enjoying the Tavares banter. I agree with the idea that the window for winning with 87 & 71 is extended if they have lower minutes in the next few years. Tavares on Pens would be just straight dirty.
Who knows what will happen, but sure as heck gonna be fun watching all the combinations of what ifs over the next few months.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby KG on Tue May 15, 2018 6:00 am

Taveras still has never been paid a market value contract. Now is his time to get paaaaiiidddd. If I’m him I’m going to the team that can offer me two things. 1. The most money and with 2. The best chance to win.

One of them is not the Pens.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby pekkasteele on Tue May 15, 2018 6:10 am

Lets call VGK and offer Letang + ? for Schmidt (2.25M next season, then UFA) and Marchessault (5M from next season), we get a good D and a LW, Vegas gets a #1 D with lots of playoff experience. And if they don't win it this year, they probably want that.

They ove us since ... the Flower!
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Wyopen on Tue May 15, 2018 6:36 am

pekkasteele wrote:Lets call VGK and offer Letang + ? for Schmidt (2.25M next season, then UFA) and Marchessault (5M from next season), we get a good D and a LW, Vegas gets a #1 D with lots of playoff experience. And if they don't win it this year, they probably want that.

They ove us since ... the Flower!

No they don’t, they helped pay Brassards salary and took Reeves.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby pekkasteele on Tue May 15, 2018 8:19 am

Wyopen wrote:
pekkasteele wrote:Lets call VGK and offer Letang + ? for Schmidt (2.25M next season, then UFA) and Marchessault (5M from next season), we get a good D and a LW, Vegas gets a #1 D with lots of playoff experience. And if they don't win it this year, they probably want that.

They ove us since ... the Flower!

No they don’t, they helped pay Brassards salary and took Reeves.


Well, one can think some believe Reeves is the reason they are still playing, and we don't ...
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Pitts on Tue May 15, 2018 9:50 am

pekkasteele wrote:Lets call VGK and offer Letang + ? for Schmidt (2.25M next season, then UFA) and Marchessault (5M from next season), we get a good D and a LW, Vegas gets a #1 D with lots of playoff experience. And if they don't win it this year, they probably want that.

They ove us since ... the Flower!

Yeah, and they ate half of Brassard's salary for no reason as a thank you gesture.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Tue May 15, 2018 10:07 am

Pitts wrote:
pekkasteele wrote:Lets call VGK and offer Letang + ? for Schmidt (2.25M next season, then UFA) and Marchessault (5M from next season), we get a good D and a LW, Vegas gets a #1 D with lots of playoff experience. And if they don't win it this year, they probably want that.

They ove us since ... the Flower!

Yeah, and they ate half of Brassard's salary for no reason as a thank you gesture.

And to block the Jets from getting Brassard.....who instead go Stastny.....who has been the much better player in the playoffs. They probably don't want to do us any more favors.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby OKpensfan247 on Tue May 15, 2018 3:12 pm

interstorm wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:
interstorm wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I cannot fathom a scenario where getting John Tavares for this team makes sense, unless you are trading away Kessel, Hornqvist, and Hagelin, and are willing to go with Guetnzel, Rust, Sprong, ZAR.....cheap winger options.....throughout the lineup. That would be the definition of sacrificing the good of the team over the next several years for 1 or 2 years of TRYING to win a Cup. I don't think Rutherford is that stupid.


I don't think it is likely but I also don't think it is necessarily foolish. Let's have an honest referendum on Jake Guentzel. Kid has been lights out the last 2 playoffs and a wonderful addition to the team. But is he an extension of Crosby or is he that good on his own? If you believe that Sid does a fair amount to draw coverage, make plays and increase Guentzel's effectiveness by a wide margin...then couldn't Tavares likewise increase his winger's stats and thus allow for less spend at LW/RW if necessary (and yes, while nobody is Sid, Tavares theoretically would be player against lower D-men)? Could ZAR be the Guentzel for Tavares?

A lot of guesswork but as I stated in my post a couple pages back, if the Penguins believe the formula to winning is to have 3 dominant lines that can come shift after shift to overwhelm a team, is Tavares not the best way to achieve that? Should it cause us to lose skill on the wings somewhat -- does it matter?

Just saying that while this most certainly is a pipe dream -- I don't think it comes without merit.



Yes. I agree. Someone is going to get the 3C role next season. Why not Tavares if he wants it. No one is coming here thinking that Sid and Geno are not the 1 and 2 Centers. If he comes here it would be under no false pretenses. Just the idea that Sid and Geno would be going into the playoffs next season having an average ice time of less than 20 minutes is refreshing.

Not to mention this was the first season in which both Sid and Geno actually stayed healthy during the season. Having Tavares would be an embarrasment of riches.


More appropriately it's gong back to the Shero model of having elite talent at center and getting cheap players to play on the wing. Except for 2009 that model didn't work out all that well.


Aside from Kessel and Hornqvist, the '17 and '16 Pens didn't have loads of talent on the wings. Guys like Kunitz are more grinders with some skill (and grest centers to play with). I think all the Tavares talk is focused on these last 2 teams, not anything Shero did.


Well, i get your point we havent had any higher salary superstars on the wings other than those two guys... But the problem is, we got much better depth scoring contributions from our wings the last two years.

Last year's playoffs for example... Snake 13 goals, Rust 7 goals, Scott Wilson 3 goals, Kunitz 2 goals (Phil 8 goals and Horny 5 goals btw). That group may not be high dollar stud wingers... But they were gamers that showed up in clutch situations. Like one of Kunitz's goals that beat Ottawa. And how many passes did those guys like Kunitz, etc set up for others to score. Kunitz had some of our best possession stats on the team the last two playoffs. I don't know what the goal totals were last year through 2 rounds for an ideal apples-to-apples comparison to this year... But the point is we lost that depth contributions this year in the playoffs when we needed it most.

Also, Bones had 4 goals and Cullen had 2 goals. Better than what we got this year from Brass and Sheahan when you consider how many plays/opportunities those guys set up for their teammates.

We have to get back to that winger depth contributions and better Center play from Brass and Sheahan.

Tavares won't take a cheap enough deal here for us to also add or trade for better wingers that can contribute to scoring, and add depth to distribute our attack.

The biggest obstacle is making salary cap work if we added winger depth. I think I would trade Kessel before I would trade Letang to make it happen. Not saying that is easy.

I think our D is fine other tham Letang cutting down on ridiculously stupid plays that he can control (being on opposite side of ice of where he is supposed to be).
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby interstorm on Tue May 15, 2018 4:52 pm

OKpensfan247 wrote:we got much better depth scoring contributions from our wings the last two years.

Last year's playoffs for example... Snake 13 goals, Rust 7 goals, Scott Wilson 3 goals, Kunitz 2 goals (Phil 8 goals and Horny 5 goals btw). That group may not be high dollar stud wingers... But they were gamers that showed up in clutch situations ... But the point is we lost that depth contributions this year in the playoffs when we needed it most.


For the most part didn't we have much of the same wingers this year as opposed to last? Still have Snake. Still have Rust. Admittedly Kunitz was a loss but he was a declining player (who has 0 goals and 0 assists this year in 12 games for the Bolts) and I hardly think Wilson should be counted on for much. I completely agree that we need gritty gamers who will pay the price and go to the tough areas of the ice. I like what we've seen from ZAR -- we need more like him. If anything, Vegas and (on paper) the worst team Washington has fielded in years is proving that a roster of superstars isn't the formula to success.

OKpensfan247 wrote:Also, Bones had 4 goals and Cullen had 2 goals. Better than what we got this year from Brass and Sheahan when you consider how many plays/opportunities those guys set up for their teammates.


This is kind of what I'm talking about -- maximize the center position even at the expense of the (high priced) wings; Let the center bring the talent/skill for the line while the wingers bring speed and grit (at the expense of skill). It is proven that Sid, Geno and Tavares can elevate the players around them. Having lines 1A, 1B and 1C would be completely overwhelming for the other defense.

On our own backend I think we should look to improve if possible -- getting Tavares would necessitate moving Letang and possibly either (or both) Brassard / Kessel (these can be salary dumps for said speedy/gritty wingers and/or draft picks/prospects to replace our pipeline).
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby ville5 on Tue May 15, 2018 8:26 pm

Bobby McK says Canes owner looking to make changes and everyone except Aho is available. Letang for Skinner, pick and a D? Do it GMJR.
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