The search for the elusive 3C thread!

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The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby KG on Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:55 am

Seeing that we lose some good topic discussion in the giant "off season" thread. I figured we could start a nice, new fresh thread to discuss the search for the 3C...

I'll kick it off 8-)

We have discussed the 3C topic since the off season. We all know we need a legit top 3 center to help the push for more success.

I looked over the rosters of teams that are currently out of the playoffs that may look to make a move and shake it up. One long term, one short term.

1. Long term. Nugent-Hopkins. He is signed through 2021 at $6mill cap hit. We all know he's not a real 3C, but center depth wins in this league. He would be a dynamic addition and deepen the lineup greatly.

2. Shorter term. Brassard. He is signed through next season at a $5mill cap hit. He isn't the player of RNH but he also doesn't tie up cap space long term. He is a playoff warrior type who I think would fit in perfectly with this team. A better version of Bonino, which would be a great find.

Cost to acquire? obviously RNH will cost something legitimate off the active roster. Brassard would cost less. Ottawa may not be looking to rebuild with youth since they made it to the ECF last year. Maybe Hagelin/Cole plus could get it done?

Sign me up for Brassard. Thoughts?

PS just to add: Brassard 78 playoff games 22-33-55. Big game Brad....
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Steve Dave on Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:07 pm

I would guess Brassard would cost Hagelin, Rust and a 1st or Sheary, Rust and a 2nd. Hagelin would fit in with their defensive scheme but has little value at this time. I would love to get a Brassard/Smith package from them somehow...

Simon Crosby Sprong
Smith Malkin Kessel
Guentzel Brassard Hornqvist
Kuhnhackl Sheahan Reaves
Rowney
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:30 pm

I'll add this here, since I put it in the big thread first:

Unfortunately, I think both of these two are out of reach. The Penguins assets are very limited. Ideally, you want to trade very little off of your current roster. I don't think draft picks alone are enough to get either, especially knowing that Penguins 1st round picks are closer to 2nd round than lottery picks. In terms of A-level prospects, Sprong and Jarry are about all we have. You might have some value in a guy like ZAR, Dea, and Blueger. Maybe you have some value from some guys that are further out development wise, like Gustavsson and Bellerive. But that's about it.....and that's not much, especially when you are battling with other teams that have better picks and deeper prospect pools. I'd be all for either one of those guys, but I think if Rutherford pulled it off without giving up anything beyond Cole or Hagelin off the roster, it would be a miracle greater than the Kessel trade.

I really think the Penguins will have to go with a lesser talent player here. Doesn't mean they will suck, but they likely won't have the consistency or experience of RNH and Brassard.
---->Toronto needs defense. Bozak for Cole and a pick would seem to make a ton of sense. But, Toronto is doing well right now and has no immediate pressure to make a move. Their division is ultra-weak, as DET is the next team behind them, 11 points back already. They have a lot of centers playing wing, but, would they really want to make a trade with a team they could battle in the playoffs.
---->Buffalo, Dallas, and Edmonton are still on my list of best trading partners.
-------->BUF isn't making the playoffs this year. Botteril has good knowledge of the Penguins farm system, so there is a chance he may put value some of the Penguins prospects other than the top guys because of his knowledge of those players. They could use Cole as a Josh Gorges replacement next year. Sam Reinhart would be the play here.
-------->EDM could use some better defense. Instead of RNH, the play here would be for Ryan Strome.
-------->DAL I don't watch the team enough, but, to me, Hamhuis is getting old and is UFA. Pateryn isn't anything special. Cole would be an upgrade to both of them. Seguin, Hanzal, Spezza, Faksa, Shore, Janmark.....those guys are all centers. Faksa would be an amazing get, but I can't see DAL giving him up even for Cole and a 1st. But I think Shore or Janmark could be had.

Main theme here is to find someone that has a much better offensive upside than Sheahan, but maybe hasn't put it all together yet or has been a bit up and down.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby sil on Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:33 pm

Found it

Image
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Jim on Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:48 pm

My top concern is usually cap $ = on ice product.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby murphydump55 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:00 pm

Jim wrote:My top concern is usually cap $ = on ice product.


As in value? I'm pretty sure that's what everyone looks at, with the exception of a couple clueless GM's. If you aren't going for value you're doing it all wrong. Currently the Islanders top 2 centres and wings cost 13 million. If Snow doesn't take advantage of this he's a complete moron.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Jim on Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:38 pm

I suppose that it could just be labeled as "value" for ease. I tend to not care too much about an $640,000 guy having a bad game or 3... but am very critical of a $4M guy, or a $9.5M guy.

When you have a $4.1M guy replacing a $650K guy in the lineup but not doing anything that that $650K guy can do... critical. When the $2.1M guy starts playing better, less critical.

I look the same in trade. It seems that many people look at the 3C and want someone that could step into the 1C or 2C if there is an injury. That take $ and it is simply a luxury that the Pens don't have.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby murphydump55 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:35 pm

Jim wrote:I suppose that it could just be labeled as "value" for ease. I tend to not care too much about an $640,000 guy having a bad game or 3... but am very critical of a $4M guy, or a $9.5M guy.

When you have a $4.1M guy replacing a $650K guy in the lineup but not doing anything that that $650K guy can do... critical. When the $2.1M guy starts playing better, less critical.

I look the same in trade. It seems that many people look at the 3C and want someone that could step into the 1C or 2C if there is an injury. That take $ and it is simply a luxury that the Pens don't have.


Of course its value. No supposing you "could" say it. It's not rocket science by any means. Getting guys on entry level deals that can contribute is huge, not to mention the cheap deals like Cullen had. Everyone knows this, or should.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Jim on Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:39 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
Jim wrote:I suppose that it could just be labeled as "value" for ease. I tend to not care too much about an $640,000 guy having a bad game or 3... but am very critical of a $4M guy, or a $9.5M guy.

When you have a $4.1M guy replacing a $650K guy in the lineup but not doing anything that that $650K guy can do... critical. When the $2.1M guy starts playing better, less critical.

I look the same in trade. It seems that many people look at the 3C and want someone that could step into the 1C or 2C if there is an injury. That take $ and it is simply a luxury that the Pens don't have.


Of course its value. No supposing you "could" say it. It's not rocket science by any means. Getting guys on entry level deals that can contribute is huge, not to mention the cheap deals like Cullen had. Everyone knows this, or should.


Yet people still complain about low cost 4th liners. A lot.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:43 pm

I'm fine with kicking the can down the road if we can get Hagelin off the books after next season.

My short term choice is Valtteri Filppula. Price would be right and no long term commitment.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby netwolf on Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:46 pm

Seems to me the biggest impediment to this is the cap. It would really help if they could find a taker for Hagelin. I know he still does some good things and has decent possession numbers, but for $4M, I need more than 2+5 over 41 games (and just 6+16 over 61 gp last year). I think at that price, you need more production.

Barring that, you still have to give to get, and I don't know what assets they'd be willing to pay with that could get them a viable 3C.

Then again, if you find the right GM, you might be able to pluck something decent for a bargain price...
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby murphydump55 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:14 pm

Jim wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:
Jim wrote:I suppose that it could just be labeled as "value" for ease. I tend to not care too much about an $640,000 guy having a bad game or 3... but am very critical of a $4M guy, or a $9.5M guy.

When you have a $4.1M guy replacing a $650K guy in the lineup but not doing anything that that $650K guy can do... critical. When the $2.1M guy starts playing better, less critical.

I look the same in trade. It seems that many people look at the 3C and want someone that could step into the 1C or 2C if there is an injury. That take $ and it is simply a luxury that the Pens don't have.


Of course its value. No supposing you "could" say it. It's not rocket science by any means. Getting guys on entry level deals that can contribute is huge, not to mention the cheap deals like Cullen had. Everyone knows this, or should.


Yet people still complain about low cost 4th liners. A lot.


Because people want players that contribute properly, ie 5 v 5. Having PK specialists that can't do a lick 5 v 5 like Craig Adams is a waste. For the same price we could have had a young Sheary type player. Kuhnhackl is another guy that up to recently hadn't done a thing, but is deemed valuable because of his PK. Well I watched Guentzel jump into the PK and he looked fine and he isn't a PK specialist.

Having a cheap guy is fine as long as he's contributing in the right way. Having a PK specialist or physical player like Zach Sill who can't play 5 on 5 is a bad decision.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Maestro on Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:53 am

Ottawa Sun reported that Brassard was not going anywhere. Now the Sens have Colin White waiting in the wings to be a #2 and I imagine resigning Duchene takes president over Brassard (working 1 year early in the summer to extend) - but they also just started scoring again and Brassard is part of it --- maybe he isn't for sell, at least yet...

Nugent-Hopkins is an interesting one - first he's played very well this season - but he is signed longer term as OP mentioned - McD's mega-contract kicks in next year -- many pundits have thought his trade would wait until the off season - maybe at the draft - or Edmn keeps him and rolls 3 lines with expensive centers - but that is not working at the moment.

Edmn needs a RW for McDavid and some penalty killers - Pens do have some of both.

2 teams with enormous expectations, enormous talents, under performing - in different conferences... Hmm

Hearing GMJR's comments from last night it's hard to gauge - he could be bluffing that he's okay with standing pat (my guess) - or he could actually feel that a true addition would take away too much in assets and therefore not strengthen the team.

While I was okay with dealing Sprong - after seeing him in the League again, ah, no. I think an ELC player who can snipe like that is too valuable to trade.

I would trade Hornqvist if it was part of a package for someone like the 2 centers mentioned (although I don't think OTT would want him, Edmn maybe) as I don't think he will resign in Pit come the summer. - I would include a 1st for either of those 2, as I think with them in and only one valuable winger out the team will certainly get into the Dance, and as long as they aren't the 8 seed make it at least to the 2nd rd.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:32 am

netwolf wrote:Seems to me the biggest impediment to this is the cap. It would really help if they could find a taker for Hagelin. I know he still does some good things and has decent possession numbers, but for $4M, I need more than 2+5 over 41 games (and just 6+16 over 61 gp last year). I think at that price, you need more production.

Barring that, you still have to give to get, and I don't know what assets they'd be willing to pay with that could get them a viable 3C.

Then again, if you find the right GM, you might be able to pluck something decent for a bargain price...

I keep going to either Arizona or Buffalo for Hagelin, which would depend solely on Tocchet or Botteril thinking he has value to them. Could the Penguins trade Hagelin and a pick to Arizona for Duclair? Duclair wants out. He's largely under-achieved with the exception of his first full NHL season. Nobody is going to give up a 1st for him. It's a risk by the Penguins for sure, but, I'd rather take a risk on a 22 year old forward with skill than continue letting Hagelin fly around the ice for 4M. Even if you had to retain 1M on Hagelin, it would still gain you 1.8M in cap space (Hagelin 3M cleared, Duclair 1.2M brought in).

I've heard a few times Botteril is a Hagelin fan. No idea if there is any truth to it.

I think if the Penguins could get a young, cheaper player back, and be willing to retain 25% of Hagelin salary, it's still worth it to move him. Hagelin is far beyond the little things being worth his 4M paycheck. I don't know what the actual box scores show, but he has had 3-4 prime scoring chances each of the last few games and can't finish them. They need his cap space for a player that can produce more.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby murphydump55 on Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:09 am

Great post FLPensfan, I can't disagree at all. I'd love to get Duclair and see if he could find his game again. Even if he didn't, if he at least produces at his current rate it would still be a huge upgrade on Hagelin's production.

Hagelin's Penalty Killing isn't worth the 4 million.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby pekkasteele on Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:31 am

I'm kind of mad that we did not traded for William Karlsson with Vegas, I know there was talk, briefly about him in the summer, I think you mentioned him FLP, but I don't remember if it was a real rumor or just you looking at candidates, but he is having a great season so far and today he would kost a lit more.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby DelPen on Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:20 pm

Sheary and Cole for RNH. Lowers costs for Edmonton next year and Sheary can play with McDavid. Cap just barely works for us if Rowney or Simon is sent down or Rust is out on LTIR for cap relief. But we will be right at the ceiling but a 3rd line of Guentzel-RNH-Kessel? Yikes.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:01 pm

pekkasteele wrote:I'm kind of mad that we did not traded for William Karlsson with Vegas, I know there was talk, briefly about him in the summer, I think you mentioned him FLP, but I don't remember if it was a real rumor or just you looking at candidates, but he is having a great season so far and today he would kost a lit more.

I think I had mentioned it once or twice over the summer. I don't think there was ever a true link between the Penguins and Vegas, but merely spitballing about potential players Vegas could sell off at some point. That is obviously out of the picture now, as I'm sure with his performance Karlsson is someone the Knights will look to build around.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:12 pm

DelPen wrote:Sheary and Cole for RNH. Lowers costs for Edmonton next year and Sheary can play with McDavid. Cap just barely works for us if Rowney or Simon is sent down or Rust is out on LTIR for cap relief. But we will be right at the ceiling but a 3rd line of Guentzel-RNH-Kessel? Yikes.

I think after the Hall trade, Chiarelli would have to hit a home run on a RNH trade. If I'm EDM, I'd have concerns about about a smallish player like Sheary playing in the more physical West. He's worn down at the end of the season the past 2 years. His numbers are also down about half from his solid season last year. I'm looking for better if I'm Edmonton.

Something like a Pacioretty for Nugent-Hopkins would make much more sense for both teams involved. EDM unloads a center, since they have a glut with McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH, Strome, Letestu, etc. Montreal gets a solid center that it needs. Edmonton gets a solid LW contributor. Maybe MTL throws in a pick being that Pacioretty is about 5 years older.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby 100565 on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:08 pm

How about Brad Richardson? He would be cheap rental and seems to be playing mostly center this year. Maybe a package for him and Duclair? 2nd + Hagelin + plus prospect not named Sprong or Jarry or Gustavsson.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Jim on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:30 pm

IR waiting to happen...
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby murphydump55 on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:38 pm

100565 wrote:How about Brad Richardson? He would be cheap rental and seems to be playing mostly center this year. Maybe a package for him and Duclair? 2nd + Hagelin + plus prospect not named Sprong or Jarry or Gustavsson.


Why would Arizona take Hagelin in return for a young player like Duclair? We need to realize that a team taking Hagelin would be doing the Pens a favour and wouldn't be targeting him, especially with his contract.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby 100565 on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:09 pm

I was thinking more like Duclair for 2nd; Hagelin for Richardson -- with a B level prospect added by the Guins.

I do not think Duclair will fetch too much more than a 2nd, nor do I think Richardson is worth much as a rental.

I agree Richardson is injury prone; he is not a perfect choice for 3C. However, pickings are slim. Prices will be high for better 3Cs.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Jim on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:36 pm

Duclair's been in the rumor mill off and on. His value is probably in the neighborhood of Bryan Rust, and the longer they wait the lower it will go.
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Re: The search for the elusive 3C thread!

Postby Owchar76 on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:45 pm

100565 wrote:I was thinking more like Duclair for 2nd; Hagelin for Richardson -- with a B level prospect added by the Guins.

I do not think Duclair will fetch too much more than a 2nd, nor do I think Richardson is worth much as a rental.

I agree Richardson is injury prone; he is not a perfect choice for 3C. However, pickings are slim. Prices will be high for better 3Cs.


He's one season removed from a 20 goal 44 point rookie season. Yes he had a down season last year, but this year he's on a 22 goal pace. He's only 22 years old and is hardly a throw away away player.
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