Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:38 pm

pcm wrote:You must be reading his stats incorrectly. His reg season ppg is @ .6. His best performance in the playoffs in 09, was .6 ppg. Last year, even with an extra goal, he would have only been at .5.


That's not a very substantial difference. At least, it's not big enough tomake the assumption that Jokinen ccan't contribute in the playoffs.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,716
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby shmenguin on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:41 pm

pcm wrote:You must be reading his stats incorrectly. His reg season ppg is @ .6. His best performance in the playoffs in 09, was .6 ppg. Last year, even with an extra goal, he would have only been at .5.


if i must:

2009 regular season: 27 points in 71 games
2009 playoffs: 11 points in 18 games
2013 regular season: 22 points in 43 games
2013 playoffs: 3 points in 8 games

so you must think that the 2013 playoff jokinen who was pulled in and out of the lineup and put on junk lines should be held to the same scoring standard of the guy who was in his physical prime playing big minutes with carolina's top ES and power play units in 2010 when he got 65 points. if you think that's an apt comparator, then we don't really need to go any further with this.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,413
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby pcm on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:44 pm

No, but its certainly not the picture the other poster was painting about him "stepping up" and his production rising in the playoffs. Jokinen *could* perform, but as I posted in my original point, his style of play is not the kind that sees success against tight checking teams. Therefore, my expectations are that he will do well in the reg season and flop in the playoffs if he's in a top 6 role.

I wouldn't mind seeing him play on the 3rd line. But even then, I'd probably choose Kobasew over Jokinen to finish out a line with Sutter-Bennett.
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,103
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:44 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
pcm wrote:You must be reading his stats incorrectly. His reg season ppg is @ .6. His best performance in the playoffs in 09, was .6 ppg. Last year, even with an extra goal, he would have only been at .5.


That's not a very substantial difference. At least, it's not big enough tomake the assumption that Jokinen ccan't contribute in the playoffs.


To add, you're basically saying the difference between him scoring 6 points in 10 and 5 points in 10 is a big enough difference to determine that he can't perform in the playoffs.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,716
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby meow on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:52 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
pcm wrote:You must be reading his stats incorrectly. His reg season ppg is @ .6. His best performance in the playoffs in 09, was .6 ppg. Last year, even with an extra goal, he would have only been at .5.


That's not a very substantial difference. At least, it's not big enough tomake the assumption that Jokinen ccan't contribute in the playoffs.


To add, you're basically saying the difference between him scoring 6 points in 10 and 5 points in 10 is a big enough difference to determine that he can't perform in the playoffs.

Is anyone saying can't perform in the playoffs? I was simply saying he isn't a better playoff player than regular season player.
meow
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,069
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby shmenguin on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:53 pm

pcm wrote:No, but its certainly not the picture the other poster was painting about him "stepping up" and his production rising in the playoffs. Jokinen *could* perform, but as I posted in my original point, his style of play is not the kind that sees success against tight checking teams. Therefore, my expectations are that he will do well in the reg season and flop in the playoffs if he's in a top 6 role.


in 09, he tore it up against the bruins and devils who were something like #1 and #4 in the league that year in goals against. i'm not even a huge jokinen guy, but regarding him in the playoffs, there's more cause for optimism than the other way around.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,413
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby shmenguin on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:59 pm

meow wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
pcm wrote:You must be reading his stats incorrectly. His reg season ppg is @ .6. His best performance in the playoffs in 09, was .6 ppg. Last year, even with an extra goal, he would have only been at .5.


That's not a very substantial difference. At least, it's not big enough tomake the assumption that Jokinen ccan't contribute in the playoffs.


To add, you're basically saying the difference between him scoring 6 points in 10 and 5 points in 10 is a big enough difference to determine that he can't perform in the playoffs.

Is anyone saying can't perform in the playoffs? I was simply saying he isn't a better playoff player than regular season player.


let's say jokinen settles somewhere around .4 PPG this year. in the playoffs, he goes up to .5 PPG. by you're reasoning, you would see this as some sort of playoff failure.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,413
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby meow on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:06 pm

How did you get that out of what I said? You said there is evidence that he steps it up in the playoffs. I said that if that were true, it must not be in the point department because his points per game average goes down in the playoffs.
meow
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,069
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:09 pm

And the stats show insignificance between .5 PPG and .6 PPG. It's 1 point over 10 games or 2 points over 20 games.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,716
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby shmenguin on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:10 pm

good grief...if your argument is solely comprised of comparisons to his career average, you should get more familiar with how that works.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,413
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby shmenguin on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:15 pm

MRandall25 wrote:And the stats show insignificance between .5 PPG and .6 PPG. It's 1 point over 10 games or 2 points over 20 games.


that's not the issue. we're not even in jokinen country anymore. this is just simple common sense.

in 09, his PPG increased by 61% in the playoffs compared to the regular season.

but the argument i'm seeing is that because his PPG only increased by about 1.5% compared to his career regular season numbers, it's not evidence that he stepped up his game in the playoffs that year. i mean...huh?

sixty. one. percent.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,413
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby meow on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:16 pm

Boy, the wheels have fallen off here. I am not disagreeing with it. I like Jokinen. He's a good player, regular season and post season. I just don't see how he steps it up in the playoffs. He seems fairly even keeled to me. Having his consistency is a good thing because he doesn't go into prolonged scoring droughts.
meow
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,069
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby Great58 on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:21 pm

meow wrote:How did you get that out of what I said? You said there is evidence that he steps it up in the playoffs. I said that if that were true, it must not be in the point department because his points per game average goes down in the playoffs.

How many players actually have better playoff ppg averages than regular season across their careers?
Malkin does, Sid does not. Is that a good indicator of which player steps it up in the playoffs? Idk.
Great58
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,582
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: On the blue line

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby meow on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:27 pm

Great58 wrote:
meow wrote:How did you get that out of what I said? You said there is evidence that he steps it up in the playoffs. I said that if that were true, it must not be in the point department because his points per game average goes down in the playoffs.

How many players actually have better playoff ppg averages than regular season across their careers?
Malkin does, Sid does not. Is that a good indicator of which player steps it up in the playoffs? Idk.

I don't know is exactly the point I am trying to get across. Sid might very well be a better playoff performer compared to regular season games, but it doesn't show up on the stat sheet that way. It's not a knock on him, it's just the way it is.
meow
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,069
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby sjnhiils on Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:09 pm

pcm wrote:I can assess the way he plays, and see that he's a soft player who gets by on superior hockey sense and above average puck skills. He reads plays very well and thus can get decent opportunities playing against teams that are loose in their own end, especially playing with an unpredictable guy like Malkin. But he doesn't actually create any space on the ice. And in tight checking games, if you're not creating opportunities on your own, then there's not going to be much there for a guy like Jokinen.

Great read by him for the GWG against Boston. But he was useless the whole night before then. I'm not saying theres no spot on this team for him, but I don't expect him to be a productive player on the LW with Malkin and Neal come April. My expectation is that he'll drag that line down, as they do best with a guy who can retrieve pucks for them and open up space. They don't need another guy to carry or shoot the puck, as they've got the covered.

Iknow people call him soft too, but maybe trade Orpik and Jokinen for Hemsky. I think he could take some of the pressure off of Malkin trying too hard to do everything himself. Hemsky is a good skater , can open up the ice and has put up 2 seasons with over 50 assists in his career. If he didn't work out on Malkin's left wing, you could move him up to Sid's right wing, move Kunitz to Malkin's line and put Dupuis on the third line. If Hemsky is not the type of forward you think would work, maybe look at Greening , Chimera or Booth. All are big forwards that can skate.
sjnhiils
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:32 pm

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby pcm on Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:28 pm

No thanks on Hemsky. Not a need. Booth would fit right in on the IR here, after making room for his big caphit, Greening signed a nice new contract in Ott, and Chimera seems to be doing pretty darn well for himself in Washington (he's got more goals than Malkin).

I wonder if Toronto might be intersted in swapping Jokinen for Kulemin, as Dreger has them shopping for a center with their current injuries.
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,103
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:31 pm

Why would we trade for Kulemin?

He's played 3 games all year and hasn't had a good season since 2010-2011.

Not sure what he can offer that Jokinen doesn't.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,716
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby no name on Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:43 pm

To answer this question effectivly, i would have to look at each play and pretend someone would tell me before the season started that this player will be performing like such.

If someone told me Engelland would be playing forward and doing well i would of been shocked.
If someone said Nisky would be a real steady guy on the blue line i would of been shocked as well.
If someone said Fleury would be playing at this level i could of believed it with no problems. I would expect him to play like he is.

But if someone said Maatta would win a job out of camp and be a good solid player on the blueline i would of said they were crazy!!!!

Maatta is my choice, but everyone brings up good poiunts with their choices.
no name
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,943
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:19 pm

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby no name on Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:48 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Why would we trade for Kulemin?

He's played 3 games all year and hasn't had a good season since 2010-2011.

Not sure what he can offer that Jokinen doesn't.


Kulemin gives you 800,000 a year more you gotta pay. Jokinen also is more versitile that him and got a ton of game left in him. I am hoping we can sign Joki for 2 more years after this season. but if he keeps playing so well he will be getting paid alot more than we can afford.
no name
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,943
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:19 pm

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby sternalot on Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:59 pm

Really surprised the number of people saying Bortuzzo. I didn't lurked this board a lot last year, but people must have been REALLY low on him then. Bortuzzo plays really sheltered minutes and I think he is the worst breakout defenseman by a long shot. In fact, the Bortuzzo-Maatta pairing has made some really boneheaded d-zone exit attempts over the last week and a half. Not to say he has been worthless, but I think the most obvious answers are Craig Adams and Tanner Glass.

Those guys have almost universally improved, and are playing a game more synonymous with Penguins hockey than they ever have. They both played full 48 game seasons last year, posting a combined 11 points. This year through 15 games, they combine for 10 points. Their possession stats are better (corsi, fenwick) year over year. While advanced stats are only reasonable in context, I think their offensive zone time possession would far exceed last year even when normalized for them playing more minutes on their current third line pairing.
sternalot
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:21 pm

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby pcm on Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:59 pm

Why? Because Kulemin fills a specific role, whereas Jokinen is a versatile fill-in for any holes in the lineup. We've got a hole on Malkin's LW, so that's where Jokinen's at.

Kulemin has a history of playing well with Malkin in the KHL, and while he broke his wrist to start the season, he's been pretty consistent in his production, but provides a stronger presence along the boards, in front of the net, would help on the PK, etc. Really though, nothing trumps the importance of getting Malkin and Neal going again. History says they do best with a hard-nosed player who can get them the puck from the dirty areas. That's not Jokinen's game at all. Kulemin looks like a pretty ideal fit.

I'd do that trade in a heartbeat.
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,103
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby meow on Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:03 pm

I love me some Kulemin, but that trade would be a bit dicey. Toronto does need a top-six center and Jokinen can play in the middle.
meow
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,069
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:17 pm

There seems to be a lot of 'ifs' with Kulemin. Seems that he apparently can only produce one way (playing w/ Malkin). People (in general) also though Ponikarovsky would be good on Malkin's wing. We saw how that turned out.

If Malkin goes out, Kulemin would be a waste. He has been a waste the last 3 years. Also, KHL success doesn't exactly translate to NHL success.

The short of it is, it's not very smart to trade for a guy who you hope plays well with one of your players. GMs typically make moves that will improve the team as a whole (with Jokinen, we had a Crosby/Malkin replacement as well as a scoring Top 6 player). I dont think trading Jokinen for Kulemin improves the team, especially if Kulemin continues his lackluster play that he has over the past 3 years.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,716
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby no name on Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:31 pm

pcm wrote:Why? Because Kulemin fills a specific role, whereas Jokinen is a versatile fill-in for any holes in the lineup. We've got a hole on Malkin's LW, so that's where Jokinen's at.

Kulemin has a history of playing well with Malkin in the KHL, and while he broke his wrist to start the season, he's been pretty consistent in his production, but provides a stronger presence along the boards, in front of the net, would help on the PK, etc. Really though, nothing trumps the importance of getting Malkin and Neal going again. History says they do best with a hard-nosed player who can get them the puck from the dirty areas. That's not Jokinen's game at all. Kulemin looks like a pretty ideal fit.

I'd do that trade in a heartbeat.


If Jokenins production drops closer to the deadline and Kulemin would have to show some signs of life. Then maybe make this move. Both players are UFAs after the season. But if Jokinen keeps scoring you would have to be crazy not to keep Joki through the playoffs.

And yes if Sid or Geno would go down for a stretch having Jokinen would be a hugh asset to get us through that time. Then he can be put back at wing once someone is healthy. Look at Engelland having that ability to play wing and D has pretty much kept him in the line up.
no name
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,943
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:19 pm

Re: Biggest Surprise Player so far?

Postby pcm on Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:44 pm

MRandall25 wrote:There seems to be a lot of 'ifs' with Kulemin. Seems that he apparently can only produce one way (playing w/ Malkin). People (in general) also though Ponikarovsky would be good on Malkin's wing. We saw how that turned out.

If Malkin goes out, Kulemin would be a waste. He has been a waste the last 3 years. Also, KHL success doesn't exactly translate to NHL success.

The short of it is, it's not very smart to trade for a guy who you hope plays well with one of your players. GMs typically make moves that will improve the team as a whole (with Jokinen, we had a Crosby/Malkin replacement as well as a scoring Top 6 player). I dont think trading Jokinen for Kulemin improves the team, especially if Kulemin continues his lackluster play that he has over the past 3 years.


A waste the past 3 years? He had one down year in 11-12, scoring 28 points on a bad leafs team. He was a 30 goal scorer the year before that and last year he put up .5 pts a game, which is exactly what's expected of him. None of that was with Malkin. He's been relied upon as a consistent secondary scorer in Tor, and is valued as such. But he has also torn it up with Malkin in the KHL. If we got just the Toronto Kulemin, we'd be getting a very reliable player who adds much needed jam to our top 6. An upgrade over Jokinen.

But then theres the potential Malkin lights it up playing with Kulemin. Whether its Kulemin or another guy like him, there's a hole in the lineup there. Malkin has not played well with Jokinen or any of the rotating LW's since Kunitz.
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,103
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

e-mail