Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby pens_srq on Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:46 pm

ESPN rankings are based on Facebook likes not any sort of real analysis.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:02 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Nobody said anything about Fleury not having a legit goalie coach when he went to back to back Stanley Cup Finals. IMO, the problem with Fleury is mental. Until he gets his head right, he will continue to fail.


I'd argue that goes back into the whole thing about the defense in front of him.


You can argue anything. I've seen enough of weak goals to say the defense doesnt deserve the bulk of the blame. I hope I never see Fleury in goal in the playoffs again, unless the Pens are playing him.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:33 pm

pens_srq wrote:ESPN rankings are based on Facebook likes not any sort of real analysis.


orly
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby sjnhiils on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:21 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Nobody said anything about Fleury not having a legit goalie coach when he went to back to back Stanley Cup Finals. IMO, the problem with Fleury is mental. Until he gets his head right, he will continue to fail.


I'd argue that goes back into the whole thing about the defense in front of him.

But i thought we had two "olympian shut down d-men" in Martin and Orpik!!!
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:25 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Nobody said anything about Fleury not having a legit goalie coach when he went to back to back Stanley Cup Finals. IMO, the problem with Fleury is mental. Until he gets his head right, he will continue to fail.


This...

Everyone can argue that these rankings hold no more weight than "likes" on Facebook, but you can't argue with one specific fact: If Fleury was a winner, he'd getting those "likes."

Not being a homer, but Fleury is probably one of the top three most talented goalies in the league. Sadly, his brain overpowers his talent and can't reach his potential. Talent doesn't win games, getting results from your talent wins games, and that's why he's not considered one of the best goalies in the league any more.

It's taken me a lot to lose faith in Fleury. I've been a Fleury supporter to a fault, but it's time to call a spade, a spade. Could Fleury re-emerge? Absolutely! Are time and odds in his favor? Nope.

Fleury is only 28, has had two trips to the cup coming out with one cup win and his issues are getting worse NOW? That is not a good sign of the direction he's heading. These are issues a goalie should have coming into the league, work on then prevail, not vice-versa.

My only real hope is that Vokoun can stay well-rested this season and be ready for a cup run while Fleury gets us to the playoffs.
Last edited by Hugo Stiglitz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:27 pm

sjnhiils wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Nobody said anything about Fleury not having a legit goalie coach when he went to back to back Stanley Cup Finals. IMO, the problem with Fleury is mental. Until he gets his head right, he will continue to fail.


I'd argue that goes back into the whole thing about the defense in front of him.

But i thought we had two "olympian shut down d-men" in Martin and Orpik!!!


There are 4 other defensemen and 12 other players on the team.

It's not an indictment of individuals, but rather the system.

But hey, your boy Niskanen isn't really doing much to help. If you wouldn't say stupid ****, no one would care.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby slappybrown on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:29 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
columbia wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Fleury and Vokoun are 2 different goalies. Fleury is at his best when he isn't scrambling around covering the defense's mistakes because he was never taught how to handle it. Vokoun, with the experience, can play with a crappy D because he's been playing with crappy defenses his entire career (especially during his time in Florida, where he consistently saw 40+ shots a game), and has learned from experience.

So yes, it is possible that 2 goalies can play differently with the same defense in front of them.


I'm not sure if you intended to, but you just made an argument for Vokoun being the better goalie.

Also: Vokoun was capable of learning to deal with adversity through experience, but it has to be taught to MAF? He's not capable of learning on his own?


Vokoun is what, 35? Fleury isn't even 30 yet, and hasn't had a legitimate goalie coach his entire career (and still came away with a cup ring).

I never said Vokoun had to learn it on his own (though I can see how you came to that). I was implying Vokoin received the proper training from the get-go and was able to carry the Pens when the defense broke down because he was used to dealing with it in Florida.


So in 2008 and 2009 Meloche was legit? But then he became non-legit? I don't get it.

I think it was a very good idea to make a change, but this is a cop-out.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:36 pm

slappybrown wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
columbia wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Fleury and Vokoun are 2 different goalies. Fleury is at his best when he isn't scrambling around covering the defense's mistakes because he was never taught how to handle it. Vokoun, with the experience, can play with a crappy D because he's been playing with crappy defenses his entire career (especially during his time in Florida, where he consistently saw 40+ shots a game), and has learned from experience.

So yes, it is possible that 2 goalies can play differently with the same defense in front of them.


I'm not sure if you intended to, but you just made an argument for Vokoun being the better goalie.

Also: Vokoun was capable of learning to deal with adversity through experience, but it has to be taught to MAF? He's not capable of learning on his own?


Vokoun is what, 35? Fleury isn't even 30 yet, and hasn't had a legitimate goalie coach his entire career (and still came away with a cup ring).

I never said Vokoun had to learn it on his own (though I can see how you came to that). I was implying Vokoin received the proper training from the get-go and was able to carry the Pens when the defense broke down because he was used to dealing with it in Florida.


So in 2008 and 2009 Meloche was legit? But then he became non-legit? I don't get it.

I think it was a very good idea to make a change, but this is a cop-out.


No. I think a combination of good systematic defense and Fleury's athleticism won the Cup.

The difference is the defense isn't the same. With a poorer structure in front of him, Fleury's athleticism is being relied on even more, and I think what we've been seeing is the breaking point of the athleticism. The defensive letdowns, plus lack of proper training, leads to what we've seen: Fleury can no longer rely on his athleticism to make saves (as he has his whole career) and he looks lost out there.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:40 pm

To add, I feel like the defense did a good job of insulating him during those years, and he made the saves he needed to make. It's why goalies like Mike Smith and Bryzhalov look like dung outside of Phoenix's system.

Now, he's doing much more scrambling and is being relied on more than the past due to turnovers/improper positioning (both defense and him), and it's affecting how he plays physically and mentally.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:43 pm

Sorry to triple post, but if Fleury was receiving proper training, why has he regressed? The goalie coach has been the same up until now.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:52 pm

MRandall25 wrote:To add, I feel like the defense did a good job of insulating him during those years, and he made the saves he needed to make. It's why goalies like Mike Smith and Bryzhalov look like dung outside of Phoenix's system.

Now, he's doing much more scrambling and is being relied on more than the past due to turnovers/improper positioning (both defense and him), and it's affecting how he plays physically and mentally.


You can really go back and forth here, but I feel that even despite the defensive play, Fleury was not coming up with game-savers. What makes an Elite goalie, Elite, is his ability to be a game-changer in spite of his team's play. Now, I'm not saying Fleury needs to do that all the time, but he doesn't do it at all anymore when it counts.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:04 pm

Which is why I said (paraphrasing) "When the D broke down, Fleury needed to rely on his athleticism to make saves, and it worked, for a time."

The defensive breakdowns (going back, not just last year) were frequent enough that, soon, Fleury's athleticism wasn't enough to make up for the mistakes.
 
We're at the point now where Fleury knows (or thinks) he can no longer rely on his athleticism (as he has his entire career), and the shaky goaltending in overall lack of confidence, IMO, is a direct result of that. He just needs Bale to get him back to the basics. He looked good on a few scrambles in front of the net Sunday night, so who knows.
Last edited by MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Crankshaft on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:06 pm

There is truth to what everyone is saying. When they drafted Fleury first overall in 2003, many expected him to be the next Martin Brodeur. He had HUGE expectations laid on him. He was thrown to the wolves right away as a rookie on some very bad Penguins teams. Then, Therien whipped them into shape and they were a tight, defensive team. Any goalie would have worked well in that system, but take Fleury who had that extra flair to his game, and he looked like a potential star. Once Therien's system faded away and Bylsma injected a more open style of play, they relied on Fleury to shoulder more of the load and to take that next step to be more Hasek/Brodeur-like. However, it didn't happen. He just wasn't ready to be "the man" for the defense.

Now, the debate is whether or not he'll recover and be able to be the player they need. Personally, I think that given his age, his best days are in front of him. He may not be the Dominick Hasek/Martin Brodeur who can take over a game, but show me a goalie who is like that in today's NHL. The Pens have to commit to a tighter defensive scheme. There is no two ways about it. Here's hoping Jacques Martin brings some of that to this team.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:07 pm

Crankshaft wrote:There is truth to what everyone is saying. When they drafted Fleury first overall in 2003, many expected him to be the next Martin Brodeur. He had HUGE expectations laid on him. He was thrown to the wolves right away as a rookie on some very bad Penguins teams. Then, Therien whipped them into shape and they were a tight, defensive team. Any goalie would have worked well in that system, but take Fleury who had that extra flair to his game, and he looked like a potential star. Once Therien's system faded away and Bylsma injected a more open style of play, they relied on Fleury to shoulder more of the load and to take that next step to be more Hasek/Brodeur-like. However, it didn't happen. He just wasn't ready to be "the man" for the defense.

Now, the debate is whether or not he'll recover and be able to be the player they need. Personally, I think that given his age, his best days are in front of him. He may not be the Dominick Hasek/Martin Brodeur who can take over a game, but show me a goalie who is like that in today's NHL. The Pens have to commit to a tighter defensive scheme. There is no two ways about it. Here's hoping Jacques Martin brings some of that to this team.


Henrik Lundqvist says hello. But there is a reason he is the best goalie in hockey.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Crankshaft on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:10 pm

Rylan wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:There is truth to what everyone is saying. When they drafted Fleury first overall in 2003, many expected him to be the next Martin Brodeur. He had HUGE expectations laid on him. He was thrown to the wolves right away as a rookie on some very bad Penguins teams. Then, Therien whipped them into shape and they were a tight, defensive team. Any goalie would have worked well in that system, but take Fleury who had that extra flair to his game, and he looked like a potential star. Once Therien's system faded away and Bylsma injected a more open style of play, they relied on Fleury to shoulder more of the load and to take that next step to be more Hasek/Brodeur-like. However, it didn't happen. He just wasn't ready to be "the man" for the defense.

Now, the debate is whether or not he'll recover and be able to be the player they need. Personally, I think that given his age, his best days are in front of him. He may not be the Dominick Hasek/Martin Brodeur who can take over a game, but show me a goalie who is like that in today's NHL. The Pens have to commit to a tighter defensive scheme. There is no two ways about it. Here's hoping Jacques Martin brings some of that to this team.


Henrik Lundqvist says hello. But there is a reason he is the best goalie in hockey.


Henrik Lundqvist is a great goalie, but what has he won?

Spoiler:
I am in no way saying Fleury > Lundqvist. He's definitely the NHL's best goaltender.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:17 pm

Lundqvist can't score for the Rangers along with stopping the puck. The Rangers haven't had a team that genuinely helped him win.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:19 pm

Rylan wrote:Lundqvist can't score for the Rangers along with stopping the puck. The Rangers haven't had a team that genuinely helped him win.


07-08 team?
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:23 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Rylan wrote:Lundqvist can't score for the Rangers along with stopping the puck. The Rangers haven't had a team that genuinely helped him win.


07-08 team?


Where the Pens crushed the Rangers?
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:25 pm

Rylan wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Rylan wrote:Lundqvist can't score for the Rangers along with stopping the puck. The Rangers haven't had a team that genuinely helped him win.


07-08 team?


Where the Pens crushed the Rangers?


IIRC their team wasn't that bad. We were just better.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:29 pm

But, the 2012 playoffs where he played very well to get the Rangers to the conference finals. A conference final where he posted 2 shutouts.

So there is recent history of Lundqvist doing what he can.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:34 pm

Why was lundqvist brought into this discussion?
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:38 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Why was lundqvist brought into this discussion?


In response to no Hasek/Brodeur types that take over games in the NHL right now. Nothing really important, just a side discussion.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:46 pm

Bob almost stole from a last place to playoffs last year. Thats over less than one year, but thats some dominance.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby DropEmJayBird on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:55 am

MRandall25 wrote:No. I think a combination of good systematic defense and Fleury's athleticism won the Cup.

The difference is the defense isn't the same. With a poorer structure in front of him, Fleury's athleticism is being relied on even more, and I think what we've been seeing is the breaking point of the athleticism. The defensive letdowns, plus lack of proper training, leads to what we've seen: Fleury can no longer rely on his athleticism to make saves (as he has his whole career) and he looks lost out there.


I actually think this is pretty spot on - Fluery is far to active in net, and I think his attempt to cover things with his athleticism is exactly what causes him to move far to much, and that results in him knocking pucks into his own net. When Vokoun goes down - he's not getting back up until the play is over.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Staggy on Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:25 pm

If anyone wants a good lol I recommend reading ESPN's top 100 forwards. I realize these types of lists are hard to do but it may be the worst one I have ever seen.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/notebook/_/page/2013_nhlrank_forwards/

Spoiler: Brendan Morrow is on the list, along with KHL Kovalchuk :face:
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