Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Fire0nice228 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:43 am

If the Pens were to trade Fluery they're left with a Vokoun whose about to collect SSI and not a whole heck of a lot after that.... Sadly, it makes more sense, and I don't see any other choice, they have to keep MAF around for now.

I, like the rest of you, hope he figures it out.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby tfrizz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:46 am

czwalga wrote:What has he done to deserve to be in the top 25? His stats dont put him there, his playoff performance well that pretty much drops him passed people who don't kick the puck in their own net. Really annoys me to hear the company line, 40 win goalie.

Its not an insult, its the truth. I firmly believe we couldn't have traded him for a 7th at seasons end.


Playoffs aside, how wouldn't his stats put him there? His regular season statistcs, on average, have ranked him in the top 25 almost every season for the past 5 seasons...

2012-13: 2.39 GAA (17th), .916 sv% (T-19th) => ~18th overall
2011-12: 2.36 GAA (T-12th), .913 sv% (T-27th) => ~19th overall
2010-11: 2.32 GAA (9th), .918 sv% (T-15th) => ~12th overall
2009-10: 2.65 GAA (24th), .905 sv% (T-33rd) => ~28th overall
2008-09: 2.67 GAA (23rd), .912 sv% (T-21st) => ~22nd overall
2007-08: 2.33 GAA (11th), .921 sv% (T-4th) => ~7th overall (Note: Fleury signed his currently contract after this season)
2006-07: 2.83 GAA (27th), .906 sv% (T-24th) => ~25th overall
2005-06: 3.25 GAA (41st), .898 sv% (T-30th) => ~35th overall

So, in his entire NHL career Fleury has only finished "outside the top 25", statistically, twice - and one of those times was in his first season as a starter behind one of the worst teams in the league.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby tfrizz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:48 am

Crankshaft wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:His trade value is irrelevant because he's never going to get traded.


Shero's not one to give players away from nothing - and he was quoted as saying that there were a few teams inquiring about Fleury, even after the playoffs, but none had an offer anywhere near acceptable. This tells me that Fleury's value has gotten so low that he's worth more to the Penguins on the roster than trading him away.


That, or GMs know Fleury's talent and were trying to buy low and take advantage of a team that was going to make a reactionary move after a dismal playoff run.


Oh, there's no doubt that GMs are trying to buy low. I don't know of anybody who argues the raw talent that Fleury possesses, and that's a BIG reason so many fans are frustrated - he shows flashes of brilliance and has the ability to be one of the best goalies in the world, but he can't seem to put it together.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby pcmforless on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:38 am

tfrizz wrote:
czwalga wrote:What has he done to deserve to be in the top 25? His stats dont put him there, his playoff performance well that pretty much drops him passed people who don't kick the puck in their own net. Really annoys me to hear the company line, 40 win goalie.

Its not an insult, its the truth. I firmly believe we couldn't have traded him for a 7th at seasons end.


Playoffs aside, how wouldn't his stats put him there? His regular season statistcs, on average, have ranked him in the top 25 almost every season for the past 5 seasons...

2012-13: 2.39 GAA (17th), .916 sv% (T-19th) => ~18th overall
2011-12: 2.36 GAA (T-12th), .913 sv% (T-27th) => ~19th overall
2010-11: 2.32 GAA (9th), .918 sv% (T-15th) => ~12th overall
2009-10: 2.65 GAA (24th), .905 sv% (T-33rd) => ~28th overall
2008-09: 2.67 GAA (23rd), .912 sv% (T-21st) => ~22nd overall
2007-08: 2.33 GAA (11th), .921 sv% (T-4th) => ~7th overall (Note: Fleury signed his currently contract after this season)
2006-07: 2.83 GAA (27th), .906 sv% (T-24th) => ~25th overall
2005-06: 3.25 GAA (41st), .898 sv% (T-30th) => ~35th overall

So, in his entire NHL career Fleury has only finished "outside the top 25", statistically, twice - and one of those times was in his first season as a starter behind one of the worst teams in the league.


Wow, I didn't realize he was consistently that mediocre. I really though his stats over the years were better than that, but they really are very run of the mill. Hopefully the Pens can develop one of the young guys into a good solid goalie and let Fleury go at the end of his contract.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby IntangibleBeer on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:43 am

FreeCandy44 wrote:ESPN? Hockey? Does not compute!


Yeah, like I'm going to start listening to what Barry Melrose (self-proclaimed expert) says. :roll:

What an ***hole! :slug:
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby tfrizz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:31 am

pcmforless wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
czwalga wrote:What has he done to deserve to be in the top 25? His stats dont put him there, his playoff performance well that pretty much drops him passed people who don't kick the puck in their own net. Really annoys me to hear the company line, 40 win goalie.

Its not an insult, its the truth. I firmly believe we couldn't have traded him for a 7th at seasons end.


Playoffs aside, how wouldn't his stats put him there? His regular season statistcs, on average, have ranked him in the top 25 almost every season for the past 5 seasons...

2012-13: 2.39 GAA (17th), .916 sv% (T-19th) => ~18th overall
2011-12: 2.36 GAA (T-12th), .913 sv% (T-27th) => ~19th overall
2010-11: 2.32 GAA (9th), .918 sv% (T-15th) => ~12th overall
2009-10: 2.65 GAA (24th), .905 sv% (T-33rd) => ~28th overall
2008-09: 2.67 GAA (23rd), .912 sv% (T-21st) => ~22nd overall
2007-08: 2.33 GAA (11th), .921 sv% (T-4th) => ~7th overall (Note: Fleury signed his currently contract after this season)
2006-07: 2.83 GAA (27th), .906 sv% (T-24th) => ~25th overall
2005-06: 3.25 GAA (41st), .898 sv% (T-30th) => ~35th overall

So, in his entire NHL career Fleury has only finished "outside the top 25", statistically, twice - and one of those times was in his first season as a starter behind one of the worst teams in the league.


Wow, I didn't realize he was consistently that mediocre. I really though his stats over the years were better than that, but they really are very run of the mill. Hopefully the Pens can develop one of the young guys into a good solid goalie and let Fleury go at the end of his contract.


Here's the thing... all you're going to get for $5-million now is mediocre. There are 11 goalies in the NHL making over $5.5-million per year, and a few more that could very well go above that on their next contracts (ex: Craig Anderson, Cory Schneider, Antti Niemi, Cory Crawford, James Reimer...) The only way around it, really, is to draft and develop - which requires patience.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby pcm on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:42 am

But you can get mediocre for a lot less than $5m. The journeymen goalies lke Vokoun provide a decent enough return on much less salary.

I'm not advocating getting rid of Fleury, but I think we could have been fine going with a tandem of Vokoun/Bryz or Vokoun/Thomas for @ $4m, saving $3m in cap space that could be used elsewhere. But I'm on board with giving Fleury another shot... I think this will be redemption year for him.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby czwalga on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:51 am

Ok ok, fleurys regular season numbers put him somewhere between 17-25.... lets celebrate.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Crankshaft on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:52 am

pcm wrote:But you can get mediocre for a lot less than $5m. The journeymen goalies lke Vokoun provide a decent enough return on much less salary.

I'm not advocating getting rid of Fleury, but I think we could have been fine going with a tandem of Vokoun/Bryz or Vokoun/Thomas for @ $4m, saving $3m in cap space that could be used elsewhere. But I'm on board with giving Fleury another shot... I think this will be redemption year for him.


If people here can't handle Fleury, how do you expect them to handle a goalie tandem of Vokoun, Bryz/Thomas? :lol:

The goal for a GM isn't to strive to find mediocre players. Despite everything against Fleury, his contract isn't so bad that it's handcuffing this team in any way, like the Luongo contract. He's only 28 years old and has flashes of brilliance. He's proven that when the team in front of him commits to strong, defensive hockey, that he can win Stanley Cups.

It would be short sighted to sell low on Fleury, at this point. Goalies tend to develop later than any other position. For the price tag, what he potentially brings is worth more than any cap savings you would get in a goal tending tandem of Vokoun and Bryzgolov.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby pcm on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:04 pm

^Agreed, and if we need mediocre [to replace atrocious], we can fall back on Vokoun.

I'm of the opinion that Fleury has taken the fall for the overall poor commitment to defense in front of him. His play is very much an extension of the team's, whereas Vokoun is not so connected and was able to come in and provide stable, average goaltending.

With more structure, and a focus on more careful play, I think Fleury will regain his composure and allow him to focus on fundamentals instead of relying on making the great save on Lidstrom over and over again on every darned shot.

But if he fails in this, I don't see any reason to carry his $5m next year when a full bowl of cap crunch will get served up.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:05 pm

Fleury not in NHL top 25 goalies.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Jim on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:27 pm

There are a lot of guys on that Top 25 list that I would take over Fleury. However, there are a few that I would take Fleury over. (You might want to mark that down... there will not be many positive comments tossed Fleury's way by me)
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:29 pm

Fleury's potential is ~top 10. Where he actually is at is ~25. I implore everyone to give Fleury this year before calling him dead. I have a feeling that after December we are going to see his best play of his career.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby czwalga on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:34 pm

pcm wrote:^Agreed, and if we need mediocre [to replace atrocious], we can fall back on Vokoun.

I'm of the opinion that Fleury has taken the fall for the overall poor commitment to defense in front of him. His play is very much an extension of the team's, whereas Vokoun is not so connected and was able to come in and provide stable, average goaltending.

With more structure, and a focus on more careful play, I think Fleury will regain his composure and allow him to focus on fundamentals instead of relying on making the great save on Lidstrom over and over again on every darned shot.

But if he fails in this, I don't see any reason to carry his $5m next year when a full bowl of cap crunch will get served up.



So fleury sucking its cause the defenses fault? Yet vokoun can play decent even with the same **** defense? People really go out of their way to defend this guy.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby tfrizz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:36 pm

Jim wrote:There are a lot of guys on that Top 25 list that I would take over Fleury. However, there are a few that I would take Fleury over. (You might want to mark that down... there will not be many positive comments tossed Fleury's way by me)


:thumb:

The list is fairly weak, in my opinion. That doesn't mean it doesn't have valid points, but here are some things I take issue with:
  1. Rask and Bobrosvky do deserve to be on the list, but not in the top 5 - at least, not yet. It takes a history of consistently great play to be a top 5 NHL goalie.
  2. System goalies (I'm looking at you, Mike Smith) have no place on that list.
  3. Fasth at #20 after a whopping 25 games of NHL experience?
  4. Bernier certainly has top 25 talent, but I want to see him take on a starting role because I actually put him in the top 25.
  5. Emery? Seriously? Let's just say that if Emery was actually a top 25 goalie, he wouldn't have been signed for $1.65-million.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:38 pm

czwalga wrote:
pcm wrote:^Agreed, and if we need mediocre [to replace atrocious], we can fall back on Vokoun.

I'm of the opinion that Fleury has taken the fall for the overall poor commitment to defense in front of him. His play is very much an extension of the team's, whereas Vokoun is not so connected and was able to come in and provide stable, average goaltending.

With more structure, and a focus on more careful play, I think Fleury will regain his composure and allow him to focus on fundamentals instead of relying on making the great save on Lidstrom over and over again on every darned shot.

But if he fails in this, I don't see any reason to carry his $5m next year when a full bowl of cap crunch will get served up.



So fleury sucking its cause the defenses fault? Yet vokoun can play decent even with the same **** defense? People really go out of their way to defend this guy.


Fleury and Vokoun are 2 different goalies. Fleury is at his best when he isn't scrambling around covering the defense's mistakes because he was never taught how to handle it. Vokoun, with the experience, can play with a crappy D because he's been playing with crappy defenses his entire career (especially during his time in Florida, where he consistently saw 40+ shots a game), and has learned from experience.

So yes, it is possible that 2 goalies can play differently with the same defense in front of them.
Last edited by MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Jim on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:40 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Jim wrote:There are a lot of guys on that Top 25 list that I would take over Fleury. However, there are a few that I would take Fleury over. (You might want to mark that down... there will not be many positive comments tossed Fleury's way by me)


:thumb:

The list is fairly weak, in my opinion. That doesn't mean it doesn't have valid points, but here are some things I take issue with:
  1. Rask and Bobrosvky do deserve to be on the list, but not in the top 5 - at least, not yet. It takes a history of consistently great play to be a top 5 NHL goalie.
  2. System goalies (I'm looking at you, Mike Smith) have no place on that list.
  3. Fasth at #20 after a whopping 25 games of NHL experience?
  4. Bernier certainly has top 25 talent, but I want to see him take on a starting role because I actually put him in the top 25.
  5. Emery? Seriously? Let's just say that if Emery was actually a top 25 goalie, he wouldn't have been signed for $1.65-million.


The list did say "based on their current quality of play" which negates the history idea and certainly means that he Vezina Trophy winner should be up quite high. So, if you are only looking at a 12 month sample size...
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby tfrizz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:40 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
czwalga wrote:
pcm wrote:^Agreed, and if we need mediocre [to replace atrocious], we can fall back on Vokoun.

I'm of the opinion that Fleury has taken the fall for the overall poor commitment to defense in front of him. His play is very much an extension of the team's, whereas Vokoun is not so connected and was able to come in and provide stable, average goaltending.

With more structure, and a focus on more careful play, I think Fleury will regain his composure and allow him to focus on fundamentals instead of relying on making the great save on Lidstrom over and over again on every darned shot.

But if he fails in this, I don't see any reason to carry his $5m next year when a full bowl of cap crunch will get served up.



So fleury sucking its cause the defenses fault? Yet vokoun can play decent even with the same **** defense? People really go out of their way to defend this guy.


Fleury and Vokoun are 2 different goalies. Fleury is at his best when he isn't scrambling around covering the defense's mistakes because he was never taught how to handle it. Vokoun, with the experience, can play with a crappy D because he's been playing with crappy defenses his entire career, and has learned from experience.

So yes, it is possible that 2 goalies can play differently with the same defense in front of them.


Even if you look at the regular season, both Fleury and Vokoun struggled (and excelled) during the same stretches. This can be directly attributed to the play of the team in front of them... when the team played poor, sloppy hockey - they struggled; when the team played good, clean hockey - they excelled.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby tfrizz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:40 pm

Jim wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Jim wrote:There are a lot of guys on that Top 25 list that I would take over Fleury. However, there are a few that I would take Fleury over. (You might want to mark that down... there will not be many positive comments tossed Fleury's way by me)


:thumb:

The list is fairly weak, in my opinion. That doesn't mean it doesn't have valid points, but here are some things I take issue with:
  1. Rask and Bobrosvky do deserve to be on the list, but not in the top 5 - at least, not yet. It takes a history of consistently great play to be a top 5 NHL goalie.
  2. System goalies (I'm looking at you, Mike Smith) have no place on that list.
  3. Fasth at #20 after a whopping 25 games of NHL experience?
  4. Bernier certainly has top 25 talent, but I want to see him take on a starting role because I actually put him in the top 25.
  5. Emery? Seriously? Let's just say that if Emery was actually a top 25 goalie, he wouldn't have been signed for $1.65-million.


The list did say "based on their current quality of play" which negates the history idea and certainly means that he Vezina Trophy winner should be up quite high. So, if you are only looking at a 12 month sample size...


Fair enough. I didn't read the article that closely.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby shmenguin on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:41 pm

i haven't even looked at the list, but if i was headed into the playoffs today, i'd take any of the guys in the top 25 over fleury.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby tfrizz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:42 pm

shmenguin wrote:i haven't even looked at the list, but if i was headed into the playoffs today, i'd take any of the guys in the top 25 over fleury.


I wouldn't take Emery over him and I wouldn't feel overly confident with Smith either.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby czwalga on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:44 pm

So we're back to the argument that Pittsburgh gives up more super shots than any other team, and fleury is not a good goalie to handle that. We need a worse goalie, but someone better at playing with a **** defense.

Wow... I'm actually of the opinion that our defense is pretty good. Not the best, but pretty good; they tend to lose their minds after soft goals though.
Last edited by czwalga on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:44 pm

Wait, Ray Emery is on that list?
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby Rylan on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:45 pm

tfrizz wrote:
shmenguin wrote:i haven't even looked at the list, but if i was headed into the playoffs today, i'd take any of the guys in the top 25 over fleury.


I wouldn't take Emery over him and I wouldn't feel overly confident with Smith either.


Yea no way I take Emery.

Positioning is more important than ever in the NHL and Fleury got by sooooooo ridiculously long on athleticism that it has eventually turned into a detriment. If Fleury and the new GT coach can get his positioning to a competent level I can expect great things from Fleury. If they can't, Fleury is a below average goalie. Its honestly, that simply put.
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Re: Fleury not in Espn top 25 goalies

Postby tfrizz on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:45 pm

czwalga wrote:So we're back to the argument that Pittsburgh gives up more super shots than any other team, and fleury is not a good goalie to handle that. We need a worse goalie, but someone better at playing with a **** defense.

Wow


Where are you getting that?
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