So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby The U on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:52 am

Beveridge wrote:What are the Vegas odds on Fleury being Paul Martin V2.0? I want to put money down on that cause I have a feeling we are in for a huge bounce back year.


He was fine all year in until the playoffs. Just like the year before, and the year before, and the year before.

Fleury didn't have 1 bad playoff. He's had like 4 in a row. His change for a Paul Martin comeback was 3 years ago after a bad Montreal series....or a bad Tampa series....or a bad Philly series....now he's coming off a bad NYI series. So thats 4 years in a row for him to show he can bounce back in the postseason.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:52 am

Vokoun is not a guy, at this stage of his career, that you count on to play 50+ games and be healthy for a long playoff run.

People seem to forget he was coming of a major groin injury and surgery in April of 2012.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby JoseCuervo on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:55 am

The U wrote:
taz71 wrote:Our goaltending propect pool looks good.


Too bad somebody like Hartzell/Thiessen/Zatkoff isn't ready to play.

Could go with Vokoun as the #1 and Hartzell or Zatkoff as #2. Vokoun plays in the postseason.

Fleury gets moved. You are paying Hartzell or Zatkoff like 900k. You just saved yourself $4.00 million dollars and got rid of an expensive, mentally screwed-up goalie that you don't trust to dress for a playoff game.

The money isn't even the point really. If we had a playoff game tomorrow and Fleury was playing FOR FREE, you still would rather have Vokoun in net. You can just never trust the guy ever again. No clue why Shero/Bylsma have his back right now.


I'm pretty sure you just proved why Fleury is going to stay. There is no other goalie in the organization that can start aside from Vokoun, and even he looked questionable at times last year.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby The U on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:55 am

MRandall25 wrote:Vokoun is not a guy, at this stage of his career, that you count on to play 50+ games and be healthy for a long playoff run.

People seem to forget he was coming of a major groin injury and surgery in April of 2012.


Agreed, which is why we were saying it's a shame nobody else is ready to play at the NHL level yet. If Hartzell was ready to backup Vokoun you could save yourself 4 million dollars per year. That's big money for a cash strapped team. Especially when that 4 million dollars would be taken from a guy who don't want to dress once the playoffs start.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby taz71 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:55 am

What is amazing to be is that although we have traded away countless draft picks and always drafting over 20 we still have a top 15 prospect pool
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby tfrizz on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:56 am

taz71 wrote:I agree Hartzell is maybe the only NHL ready prospect


I feel like I should also point out that neither Hartzell nor Thiessen are under contract for next season, which doesn't help the situation one bit.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby RPKJr429 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:08 pm

Dealing from a position of strength is always better than drafting for a specific need.

With having late first round picks, its pretty remarkable how many highly rated D prospects we have in the system. And as its been said in this thread before: Shero can always move pieces to fill specific holes with NHL-ready talent whenever he sees fit.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby pcm on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:16 pm

Said it a couple times already, but I really think Florida would be a good trade partner. D prospect for forward prospect. They are literally bursting from the seams with forwards.

Kunitz and Dupuis will probably be 3rd line wingers in 2015. We need to have guys in the bottom 6 getting playing time so that they can develop into middle 6 wingers by then. Maybe even trade Poliout for a true top 6 prospect.

Jeffrey has the potential to be a middle 6 winger. I'd like to see Uher get a carafe of coffee this season on the 4th line. Just so that he can take a permanent spot in 2014.

What about Megna? Kuhnackel?
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:21 pm

pcm wrote:Said it a couple times already, but I really think Florida would be a good trade partner. D prospect for forward prospect. They are literally bursting from the seams with forwards.



Yes I know he is small but Trocheck would just be awesome back in the Burgh!
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:54 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:and I can say with much sadness, that the forward cupboard it pretty much bare. I was almost shocked at how empty the prospect list was for the Pens when I went to look at other teams.

I went and looked at the most recent season stats and read up on our best forward prospects and felt that the only person we have is Archibald and he is at least 2 years away. Shame on Shero and the scouts in this regard. Young talent is cheap and we are simply going to have to trade for it. In my mind, with Letang signed for freaking 8 more years, I say Pouliot becomes our most intriguing trade prospect. They are the same player.

If anything happens over the next week, I think it will be Ray trying to get forward prospects.


Let it go on record that I agree with this post in reference to the lack of F prospects.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby Nizzy on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:13 pm

People need to realize the different between "ready to play" and "just not good"

Brad Theissen is like 27. He's not good. His Glove hand is slower than 10 year old soft ball players. He's not NHL quality. He got a few games to fill in at the NHL level, but he'll never be back.

You guys must be the same guys still thinking Curry is the WB/S starting goalie.

is that Froggy that said that?
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby meecrofilm on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:44 pm

pcm wrote:Said it a couple times already, but I really think Florida would be a good trade partner. D prospect for forward prospect. They are literally bursting from the seams with forwards.

Kunitz and Dupuis will probably be 3rd line wingers in 2015. We need to have guys in the bottom 6 getting playing time so that they can develop into middle 6 wingers by then. Maybe even trade Poliout for a true top 6 prospect.

Jeffrey has the potential to be a middle 6 winger. I'd like to see Uher get a carafe of coffee this season on the 4th line. Just so that he can take a permanent spot in 2014.

What about Megna? Kuhnackel?


Megna seems to be the proverbial "all the tools with no toolbox" type of player. Granted, last year was his rookie year after only one season of college, so I guess you could give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of professional playing time.

Kuhn needs to have a big year, and he should get that opportunity with the dearth of talented forwards in WBS this year. I'm not holding my breath though.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby sil on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:52 pm

meecrofilm wrote:
pcm wrote:Said it a couple times already, but I really think Florida would be a good trade partner. D prospect for forward prospect. They are literally bursting from the seams with forwards.

Kunitz and Dupuis will probably be 3rd line wingers in 2015. We need to have guys in the bottom 6 getting playing time so that they can develop into middle 6 wingers by then. Maybe even trade Poliout for a true top 6 prospect.

Jeffrey has the potential to be a middle 6 winger. I'd like to see Uher get a carafe of coffee this season on the 4th line. Just so that he can take a permanent spot in 2014.

What about Megna? Kuhnackel?


Megna seems to be the proverbial "all the tools with no toolbox" type of player. Granted, last year was his rookie year after only one season of college, so I guess you could give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of professional playing time.

Kuhn needs to have a big year, and he should get that opportunity with the dearth of talented forwards in WBS this year. I'm not holding my breath though.


Kuhnhackl has enough speed to play in the NHL, and he certainly is willing to play with an edge. The issue at bay is the scoring touch he once showed. That'll be the big difference between him playing 2nd line (small chance), 3rd line, 4th line, or career AHL'er.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby Henry Hank on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:14 pm

When they need a young forward, they'll trade from their young D to get him. Like they did with Neal.

I'm not concerned with not having forward prospects. There's no need for a top end F right now. They've got Crosby and Malkin locked up for the long-term. Kunitz, Dupuis, and Neal all for four years. Bennett being added to the mix this season.

Trading for F prospects shouldn't be a priority now. Prospects bust. What they should do in a few years is trade a young D that's getting established for a young F that's getting established. That's what they did with Neal. You already know you're getting an NHL player that way. The truly great prospects these days usually jump right to the NHL. You're not going to be able to trade for those guys. The failure rate for the lesser prospects that they'd be able to trade for is too high. Make the move to get the next Neal in a few years, don't trade for the next Tangradi right now hoping he'll develop and be ready in a few years.
Last edited by Henry Hank on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:15 pm

Two schools of thought. One drafting heavy PMD or all around dmen is better in the long run. Hard to come by and much better trade bait.

I agree in premise however my concern is that this plan takes about 5-7 years per player (longer than forwards and higher bust rates too) if you want full trade value and real value ice time.

We are missing some of the prime years of our now 3 headed monster. It will still be 3-5 more years for this plan to take any real effect.

Proponents will say great - we have a top 6 until then. I think the last few playoffs proved that is not enough. You need cheaper but more talented bottom 6 options. And ufAs are bare and overpriced.

Finally you can still trade forward prospects for roster players (see Nahville and the Caps). It's not impossible which we seem to think.

Bottom line long term Shero is probably right. Find the two to build around with Letang, trade the rest.

But short term it's not helping and I fear we are missing a few chances at a cup. Our bottom 6 on offense an our bottom 5,6 and maybe even 4 pretty much stink right now.
Last edited by BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:24 pm

Henry Hank wrote:When they need a young forward, they'll trade from their young D to get him. Like they did with Neal.

I'm not concerned with not having forward prospects. There's no need for a top end F right now. They've got Crosby and Malkin locked up for the long-term. Kunitz, Dupuis, and Neal all for four years. Bennett being added to the mix this season.

Trading for F prospects shouldn't be a priority now. Prospects bust. What they should do in a few years is trade a young D that's getting established for a young F that's getting established. That's what they did with Neal. You already know you're getting an NHL player that way. The truly great prospects these days usually jump right to the NHL. You're not going to be able to trade for those guys. The failure rate for the lesser prospects that they'd be able to trade for is too high. Make the move to get the next Neal in a few years, don't trade for the next Tangradi right now hoping he'll develop and be ready in a few years.


Not for nothing but you answer you own question in the post. You don't want to trade for prospects because they can bust. 100% fair enough.

However, the same goes for other teams. We are not quality back in our trades until our guys are not busts. That's the entire issue.

Our guys are not tradable for what we need right now.

Neal and Kunitz where nice but Kunitz really fits in here and Neal isn't missed all that much in Dallas. My only point. is don't except first line talent to that level for every trade. Those were great trades but faulty unique in circumstances.

Edited - this doesn apply to deadline rentals. Different scenario.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:27 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Henry Hank wrote:When they need a young forward, they'll trade from their young D to get him. Like they did with Neal.

I'm not concerned with not having forward prospects. There's no need for a top end F right now. They've got Crosby and Malkin locked up for the long-term. Kunitz, Dupuis, and Neal all for four years. Bennett being added to the mix this season.

Trading for F prospects shouldn't be a priority now. Prospects bust. What they should do in a few years is trade a young D that's getting established for a young F that's getting established. That's what they did with Neal. You already know you're getting an NHL player that way. The truly great prospects these days usually jump right to the NHL. You're not going to be able to trade for those guys. The failure rate for the lesser prospects that they'd be able to trade for is too high. Make the move to get the next Neal in a few years, don't trade for the next Tangradi right now hoping he'll develop and be ready in a few years.


Not for nothing but you answer you own question in the post. You don't want to trade for prospects because they can bust. 100% fair enough.

However, the same goes for other teams. We are not getting quality back in our trades until our guys are not busts. That's the entire issue.

Our guys are not tradable for what we need right now.

Neal and Kunitz where nice but Kunitz really fits in here and Neal isn't missed all that much in Dallas. My only point. is don't except first line talent to that level for every trade. Those were great trades but faulty unique in circumstances.

Edited - this doesn apply to deadline rentals. Different scenario.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby Henry Hank on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:28 pm

Our guys are not tradable for what we need right now.


I'm not sure I understand this. What do the Pens need? Certainly not top six forwards. They've got Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Kunitz, Dupuis, and Bennett for years. They've also got Jokinen this year. They don't need to make another Kunitz/Neal type trade anytime soon. I agree, their D prospects now aren't going to get them that kind of forward right now. I'd wager that in a few years, they have Letang and Despres anchoring the D, and someone like Maata or Pouliot will be considered excess and can be used to get them a young F as Kunitz and Dupuis age.

The Pens' biggest needs at this moment are third and fourth line. You can get those kinds of guys through free agency and by trading picks and more minor prospects.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby taz71 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:31 pm

Henry Hank wrote:When they need a young forward, they'll trade from their young D to get him. Like they did with Neal.

I'm not concerned with not having forward prospects. There's no need for a top end F right now. They've got Crosby and Malkin locked up for the long-term. Kunitz, Dupuis, and Neal all for four years. Bennett being added to the mix this season.

Trading for F prospects shouldn't be a priority now. Prospects bust. What they should do in a few years is trade a young D that's getting established for a young F that's getting established. That's what they did with Neal. You already know you're getting an NHL player that way. The truly great prospects these days usually jump right to the NHL. You're not going to be able to trade for those guys. The failure rate for the lesser prospects that they'd be able to trade for is too high. Make the move to get the next Neal in a few years, don't trade for the next Tangradi right now hoping he'll develop and be ready in a few years.


Bingo. We have our top 6 locked up for 4 years.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:32 pm

Henry Hank wrote:
Our guys are not tradable for what we need right now.


I'm not sure I understand this. What do the Pens need? Certainly not top six forwards. They've got Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Kunitz, Dupuis, and Bennett for years. They've also got Jokinen this uyear. They don't need to make another Kunitz/Neal type trade anytime soon. I agree, their D prospects now aren't going to get them that kind of forward right now. I'd wager that in a few years, they have Letang and Despres anchoring the D, and someone like Maata or Pouliot will be considered excess and can be used to get them a young F as Kunitz and Dupuis age.

The Pens' biggest needs at this moment are third and fourth line. You can get those kinds of guys through free agency and by trading picks and more minor prospects.


As you said you don't want to trade for prospects. What we need now is better dmen and talented but cheaper bottom 6 players.

Why would another team take any of our prospects to give up roster players, you wouldn't under a similar circumstance.

We don't have to trade for top 6 and compare every trade to Kunitz? These guys can be had for other holes to fill.

However if you do that in 3years you REAlLY out if top 6 forward players AND prospects.

Hence the issue with this plan. Unload now and undervalue for role players for example. Wait and trade for stars but by then you still have little depth and Kunitz and Dupuis are gone.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:34 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Henry Hank wrote:
Our guys are not tradable for what we need right now.


I'm not sure I understand this. What do the Pens need? Certainly not top six forwards. They've got Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Kunitz, Dupuis, and Bennett for years. They've also got Jokinen this uyear. They don't need to make another Kunitz/Neal type trade anytime soon. I agree, their D prospects now aren't going to get them that kind of forward right now. I'd wager that in a few years, they have Letang and Despres anchoring the D, and someone like Maata or Pouliot will be considered excess and can be used to get them a young F as Kunitz and Dupuis age.

The Pens' biggest needs at this moment are third and fourth line. You can get those kinds of guys through free agency and by trading picks and more minor prospects.


As you said you don't want to trade for prospects. What we need now is better dmen and talented but cheaper bottom 6 players.

Why would another team take any of our prospects to give up roster players, you wouldn't under a similar circumstance.

We don't have to trade for top 6 and compare every trade to Kunitz? These guys can be had for other holes to fill.

However if you do that in 3 years you are REAlLY out of top 6 forward players AND prospects as a lot of our guys will have moved on, retired or have been traded.

Hence the issue with this plan. Unload now and undervalue for role players for example. Wait and trade for stars but by then you still have little depth and Kunitz and Dupuis are gone

What I mean by them not being tradable is that if we dump them for what we need right now that plan o drafting these guys to get overvalue gets blown out the window. Should have just drafted fwds to begin with at that point.

And sorry screwed up my edit on the phone as the last paragraph which is kind of important to the point is in this post.
Last edited by BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby taz71 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:34 pm

Wouldn't mind trading Engellend for a forward prospect
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:37 pm

Henry Hank wrote:
Our guys are not tradable for what we need right now.


I'm not sure I understand this. What do the Pens need? Certainly not top six forwards. They've got Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Kunitz, Dupuis, and Bennett for years. They've also got Jokinen this year. They don't need to make another Kunitz/Neal type trade anytime soon. I agree, their D prospects now aren't going to get them that kind of forward right now. I'd wager that in a few years, they have Letang and Despres anchoring the D, and someone like Maata or Pouliot will be considered excess and can be used to get them a young F as Kunitz and Dupuis age.

The Pens' biggest needs at this moment are third and fourth line. You can get those kinds of guys through free agency and by trading picks and more minor prospects.


To your last point. Can we? We have swung and missed a bunch if times now in free agency and with the cap those types of players are not as easy to come by.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby taz71 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:39 pm

I don't known I feel you draft towards your scouting strength. Look at the success we have had over the years at drafting defenseman who eventually become NHL players can't say the same for forwards we have drafted. Bennett could end up being the first top 6 forward we drafted except for our can't miss picks ie crosby, malkin, staal.
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Re: So I went on hockeysfuture.com yesterday...

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:43 pm

taz71 wrote:I don't known I feel you draft towards your scouting strength. Look at the success we have had over the years at drafting defenseman who eventually become NHL players can't say the same for forwards we have drafted. Bennett could end up being the first top 6 forward we drafted except for our can't miss picks ie crosby, malkin, staal.


If that's the case that is fine, really. By that's a 100% separate argument. I agree with your premise on it though for sure.
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