Lockout

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Re: Lockout

Postby joopen on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:25 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I don't understand the surprise when the an unresolved issue comes up after something else is resolved. What are they supposed to do? Ok we figured out that we're splitting hrr 50/50 lets just sign the CBA now, nothing else needs addressed. Free Agency rules supreme. Enjoy.

That said, this is just another play to squeeze more money out of the agreement. I thought it was just, considering how "screwed" retired players were with the lockout in place, but then i listened on NHLn Radio on the way home a description of the pension works. Basically 2 types of pension(i knew nothing about pensions at all before this so if this is common knowledge, well...idiot40fans) in one you get paid out x dollars per year of service into a retirement account and in the other you get paid x % of your best earning year for the remainder of your life after you retire.

Currently the players are on the first plan and getting the maximum legally allowed. The reason this is an issue is that american players get that amount $45k into their account, and canadian players, since the amount in canada is like $27k or something, get paid the $45k as a check which is immediately taxed. It seems that is the issue. Not even sure they're fighting for option B, which the owners obviously don't want...given ownership changes and stuff.

So as you can see, given salaries and such, the players are just making things tough on the owners right now. At this point, I don't care, I blame the owners for not getting into negotiation until less than a week ago, and its going to go down to the wire before a deal is done either way. I don't care if there is one more counter or 10 between now and then.


They said in the last negotiations that pensions were resolved... now they are not because the NHLPA changed its mind. Its not resolving one issue and another appearing. It is re-opening issues that were already negotiated. This has been happening the entire time. First HHR split was the big issue for the NHLPA, but that wasn't really it because it was actually salary roll-backs, but that wasn't really it because it was the "make whole" concept, but that wasn't really it because it was pension, but that wasn't really it because it was contracting rights, but that wasn't really it because its now pension again?

And just out of curiosity, was it the owners who refused to meet with Fehr or Fehr who refused to meet with the owners before the lockout even started? Please refresh me on that because I must have read everything incorrectly since the owners haven't, apparently, been negotiating until less than a week ago.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:26 pm

I've never heard anyting about pension other than it being discussed in player-owner only meetings. It was never discussed as something that was addressed in one of the "comprehensive" proposals. Your theory that these things are suddenly appearing is pretty shoddy. I don't know one way or the other, but I do know that this is how negotiations work. And yes, based on most of what I see you say about this, you have ready everything incorrectly. The owners have not participated in real negotiations in months. They have been trying to get the players to accept their proposals over and over again and publicly refused to negotiate up a couple days ago.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:35 pm

The owners changed their position on the pension between the players-owners meeting and now.

They did have a deal on it, but the owners changed their minds.
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Re: Lockout

Postby joopen on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:37 pm

"Fehr: There IS agreement on pension plans, the Make Whole payments, called that “good.” Term limit a big difference. “Tough issue,” he said."


This was from the last round of negotiations. How does this seem to be shoddy? This came directly from Fehr.
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Re: Lockout

Postby joopen on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:38 pm

MRandall25 wrote:The owners changed their position on the pension between the players-owners meeting and now.

They did have a deal on it, but the owners changed their minds.


I would doubt that since they got the players to fully fund it in the last round of negotiations instead of splitting it.

EDIT: If they did and you can show me they did then I will recant my little rant.
Last edited by joopen on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lockout

Postby shmenguin on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:39 pm

No, but you see, this is still NOT a negotiation for some reason.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:39 pm

joopen wrote:
"Fehr: There IS agreement on pension plans, the Make Whole payments, called that “good.” Term limit a big difference. “Tough issue,” he said."


This was from the last round of negotiations. How does this seem to be shoddy? This came directly from Fehr.


where are you quoting that from?

"Bettman: I AM retiring after signing off on the players' original proposal. And yes, I am a human bobble head"
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Re: Lockout

Postby joopen on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:44 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
joopen wrote:
"Fehr: There IS agreement on pension plans, the Make Whole payments, called that “good.” Term limit a big difference. “Tough issue,” he said."


This was from the last round of negotiations. How does this seem to be shoddy? This came directly from Fehr.


where are you quoting that from?

"Bettman: I AM retiring after signing off on the players' original proposal. And yes, I am a human bobble head"


The pension stuff was attributed to Elliotte Friedman.
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Re: Lockout

Postby joopen on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:47 pm

Elliotte Friedman @FriedgeHNIC 06 Dec
Fehr: players gave proposal


Elliotte Friedman @FriedgeHNIC 06 Dec
As a result of discussions we believe we have a pension agreement and a transition agreement
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:51 pm

joopen wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:The owners changed their position on the pension between the players-owners meeting and now.

They did have a deal on it, but the owners changed their minds.


I would doubt that since they got the players to fully fund it in the last round of negotiations instead of splitting it.

EDIT: If they did and you can show me they did then I will recant my little rant.


I would look at the quote you posted earlier. There WAS an agreement on it. There were multiple sources saying the players went in thinking they had a deal and now they don't, and it was attributed to the owners... give me ~ 10 minutes to get on the computer and look it up
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Re: Lockout

Postby joopen on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:56 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/story/2013/01/02/sp-nhl-nhlpa-talks-jan2.html

A handful of representatives from both sides gathered earlier in the day to discuss the pension fund, an issue where the sides were believed to have an agreement last month but no longer see eye to eye. The players are seeking to have their pension switched to a defined benefit program.


This is what I found from today.
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Re: Lockout

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:57 pm

The pension fund issue has been discussed in the press for weeks.
Perhaps months.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:59 pm

For one, the who assumes the majority of the risk with the pensions continues to be an issue, as it seems the NHL pulled back a bit from where the two sides had agreed to be a few weeks back.


http://www.defendingbigd.com/2013/1/2/3 ... s-response

I just found this, also from today.
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Re: Lockout

Postby ulf on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:01 pm

the owners probably gave in on something else and re-visited their pension stance. Or vice versa.
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Re: Lockout

Postby joopen on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:02 pm

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412637

TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger tweeted that entering the day on Wednesday, the NHLPA wanted the NHL to share the pension cost.


Last time around, the players had agreed to fund the pension.
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Re: Lockout

Postby joopen on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:03 pm

Basically what we can take from all of this is... who the heck knows anymore.
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Re: Lockout

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:45 pm

joopen wrote:Basically what we can take from all of this is... who the heck knows anymore.


This. It all depends on what side you talk to.
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Re: Lockout

Postby pens_srq on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:50 pm

I was pretty sure that first time pensions were mentioned it was around the time of the player-owner (without Bettman and Fehr) negotiations. I'm pretty sure the changes in pension plan were part of the initial outrage.
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Re: Lockout

Postby pens_srq on Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:52 pm

If this were pensions for league employees that would be one thing. But for people that make 2.4 mil a year on average. Give me a break. Players need to focus on the headshot rules so they don't forget where they put their money.
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Re: Lockout

Postby ulf on Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:12 pm

Yeah someone with an average career length of 5 years has no business trying to get a pension :roll:
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Re: Lockout

Postby interstorm on Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:24 pm

ulf wrote:Yeah someone with an average career length of 5 years has no business trying to get a pension :roll:


...unless you are a U.S. congressman :face: (not at you ulf)
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Re: Lockout

Postby Kovy27 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:56 pm

Tanner Glass has left his team in Slovakia.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Kovy27 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:01 pm

@emptynetters: Per the team's site, forward Tanner Glass and a other NHLers have left Banksa Bystrica of the Slovak Extraliga.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:01 pm

I have to admit that I was pretty excited about signing Tanner Glass and can't wait to see him create havoc with

Image
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:05 pm

Kovy27 wrote:@emptynetters: Per the team's site, forward Tanner Glass and a other NHLers have left Banksa Bystrica of the Slovak Extraliga.


Must be Michal Handzus then.
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