Paul Martin

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Re: Paul Martin

Postby sil on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:58 am

Luckybreak wrote:
Pens4Life wrote:I just dont want to have MArtin anymore on D,because he is one of the softest players in NHL.. Trade him for a pick,prospect I DONT CARE!
I rather see we sign Colaiacovo and put him on 2nd pairing.. or even better,trade for someone psyhical.


Being 'soft' isn't an issue, Lidstrom was hardly a crusher. I think the issue is that the D core is too similar, ie players of comparable size and skillset. Someone mentioned Martin would be fantastic paired with a physical guy so that his puck retrieval and transition could be utilised effectively. Perhaps we will see some remodelling of the D at the trade deadline? The current group will be fine regular season but some more muscle might help in the playoffs.


I think Paul needs a physical player on his side, but not one who jumps out of position to make a hit (i.e. Shea Weber). Paul needs someone who won't leave his area and use his frame/physicality to make things difficult for the opponent (i.e. Hal Gill).
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Rugbymuffin on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:26 am

sil wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:
Pens4Life wrote:I just dont want to have MArtin anymore on D,because he is one of the softest players in NHL.. Trade him for a pick,prospect I DONT CARE!
I rather see we sign Colaiacovo and put him on 2nd pairing.. or even better,trade for someone psyhical.


Being 'soft' isn't an issue, Lidstrom was hardly a crusher. I think the issue is that the D core is too similar, ie players of comparable size and skillset. Someone mentioned Martin would be fantastic paired with a physical guy so that his puck retrieval and transition could be utilised effectively. Perhaps we will see some remodelling of the D at the trade deadline? The current group will be fine regular season but some more muscle might help in the playoffs.


I think Paul needs a physical player on his side, but not one who jumps out of position to make a hit (i.e. Shea Weber). Paul needs someone who won't leave his area and use his frame/physicality to make things difficult for the opponent (i.e. Hal Gill).



I completely disagree.

At some point you have to throw your body, or sacrifice your body out there. Lidstrom was flippin' Scott Stevens compared to Paul Martin. Seriously, Paul Martin is the equivalent of having a motorized hockey stick on the ice. Once he is forced into a position where he cannot use his stick, then he is utterly useless. There is a better chance the player he is defending slips on the ice then Martin doing anything about it.

Let's not even talk about when he goes to retieve a dump in.......that is a joke.

Softest player in the NHL ? Yeah, that seems right. And to answer the thread, I was excited when Martin was signed per his reputation, but it was an excitement for sight unseen. Two games into his career the guy showed how soft he was, and has gotten worse while with the Pens. He should be traded, and I am surprised ala Z.Malcklacklek he didn't ask for a trade.

If guys are not buying into the system, then get them out of here. Cause that is what it looked like in the playoffs. Half the defense was not buying in, and the poor play spread. Lovejoy for instance looked horrible, and is another that should be shopped in my opinion as well.

While I like the players we picked up so far this offseason, I still believe our defense is in a bad, bad way. Too many finese players, and not enough stay at home defensemen. Where for art thou Rob Scuderi.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby sil on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:52 am

Soff, soffest, and soffer...these are the correct spellings form what I've gathered.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Nizzy on Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:19 pm

@2 posts above, I agree about Martin.

Gonchar was a true all around number 1 defenseman in 2009 cup run. It was the most physical he has played in a long time. He was hitting a lot vs Detroit.

Martin is worse than Whitney soft. At least Whitney punched Franzen in the face. Martin moved away from checking and let people by him. Injuries are the only possible excuse, no way you get paid 5 mill to suck as much as he did vs Philly. I'm expecting a huge year next year with him.

Martin - Orpik, keep the Americans together.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby meow on Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:26 pm

Do people forget how bad Gonchar was his first 2 years here?
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:28 pm

meow wrote:Do people forget how bad Gonchar was his first 2 years here?


Do you mean the first 2/3 of a season here? Or do you count the lockout year and then round up?
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:25 pm

meow wrote:Do people forget how bad Gonchar was his first 2 years here?


Gonchar was awful his first season and pretty bad his last season with the Pens. In between he was pretty amazing.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Luckybreak on Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:31 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
meow wrote:Do people forget how bad Gonchar was his first 2 years here?


Gonchar was awful his first season and pretty bad his last season with the Pens. In between he was pretty amazing.


Martin has been awful, doubt he will ever reach the lofty heights of 'amazing' even if he performs to the top of his talent.
Obv resigning Gonch would have been a mistake at that point, just a shame that for the money Martin has been the lesser of the two players since.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Froggy on Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:53 pm

eh... gonchar has been pretty bad in ottawa. wouldn't say he's the better player right now.

the last 2 seasons...

gonchar-12g 52a 64pts, 34 of which came on the pp... -19
martin-5g 45a 50 pts, 14 of which came on the pp... +16

so, the bulk of gonchar's points come on the pp, and that coupled with his lousy +/- paint a picture of a not very special even strength player. martin scores less goals, doesn't contribute to the pp, but judging purely statistically, is a much better even strength defender. plus, gonchar makes more than martin
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Nizzy on Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:31 pm

@Froggy

Whose talking about Ottawa? He played the best all around games and his last great games in the 2009 cup run. Then he was trash in his final year. From 2007-summer of 2009 he was worth the 25 million dollar contract. Gonchar 2009 playoffs was probably the best true number 1 defenseman the Pens had since... the mid 90s.

Ottawa paid him a lot but it was also worth every penny because I'm completely sure Karlsson learned a lot of offensive skills from him.

I'm expecting a big year from Martin.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Corvidae on Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:31 pm

meow wrote:Do people forget how bad Gonchar was his first 2 years here?


Do people forget that Martin is pretty much playing the same way he always has for his entire career?

Why he's the whipping boy now is unbeknown to me. I'm not sure what people saw last year that they aren't seeing now.

Proclaimed by many as a "jack-of-all-trades" defenseman even though he can't shot, play in front of his net, check, or be remotely usefully in the offensive zone. That's how he was on New Jersey, is now, and will continue to be.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Froggy on Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:49 pm

Nizzy wrote:@Froggy

Whose talking about Ottawa?

The guy right above me who said gonchar has been the better player since he left
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:06 pm

God is talking about Ottawa?
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:15 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
no name wrote:Honestly if we are going to talk about the flyers series, in my eyes it comes down to game one blown offsides call Briere is called offside, we win game one, no meltdown, we win series. I know its simple but hey i believe if the flyers had their back to the wall losing game one we win the series, they crumble and meltdown we win.


Well, there's a bigger issue there that you touch on and it's what really separates championship teams from non-championship teams, and that's how you deal with adversity. If one blown call is responsible for the Pens losing the series, then they really didn't deserve to go past the first round. True championship teams have to deal with adversity, i.e. bad calls, missed calls, unfair acts, etc...


Especially if that blown call was halfway through a game that you were already leading by 3.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby bhaw on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:01 am

Luckybreak wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
bhaw wrote:How do you know he's been held unaccountable? Do they need to cut off his thumbs? Sorry, but statements like this are why message boards blow up with irrational hate or love for a player. You are convinced Martin played bad, had no excuse for it, and the Pens said "it's cool, Paul. Just get better next year." Yeah, I'd be pissed if that were the case too, but is that really what we are going off of?


Well, there have been plenty of accounts, at least in the media, that state Shero and Bylsma are perfectly happy with Martin's performance and believed he turned his season around back to form from his first season with the Pens. Take that for what it's worth, but I'm sure that's what the previous poster was referring too.


Thanks Hugo! To add to that, no I don't know what was said behind closed doors, but to my knowledge there was no public report of dissatisfaction from the Pens. No need to cut off his thumbs, just something along the lines of "Paul has struggled thus far but is trying hard to find the form he had last season". I think your defense of Martin is far more irrational than my comment - if you don't think he had a bad season then I worry what your expectations are bhaw. And in my defense I think there were many possible reasons for his poor performance:

The system (he was pretty solid when HCDB was forced to play a defensive system the previous season)
His partner (Michalek had a pretty bad year and they seemed to drag each other down - Martin's play improved with Letang)
Possible injury (the concussion in the playoffs).

If you have futher reasons to promote your apparant love of Martin and explain why I should not be convinced he had a bad season, or can cure me of my 'irrational hate', please do! Otherwise, as we appear to have him for at least one more season, I hope he rounds back into form because we need him at his best.


This can't be a serious response. I had to go back and read my original post to see what else I said that you drew my love and expectations of Martin from. I was shocked that none of that was there because you so eloquently pointed out a whole bunch of stuff I apparently said.

I challenge either of you to find those mystery articles that say Shero was happy with his play. I'd love to see Shero's quotes on this.

As for my love of Paul Martin, I'm curious where you are drawing this from. Just because I call out your nonsense, you apparently made up an entire dialogue of my thoughts and feelings on Paul Martin and his play. All I said was that you are claiming he is not being held accountable for his play. That is a BS statement because you have no freaking clue. A reasonable person who wanted to say something back would say I'm irrationally defending Ray Shero, because my statement is defending the notion that Shero and DB are being irresponsible by not holding PM accountable for his play. It's not defending Paul Martin in the slightest and actually acknowledges the fact that he didn't play well (had I though he played well, I probably would have questions what PM had to be held accountable for, not whether he was or wasn't held accountable for said play). Then you could state that I'm making an irrational generalization of people on the message board, which I did. But no, you chose to go down the route I didn't even take to try and "call me out" or discredit me. The funny part was that I left plenty of room to do that in that post, but you ignored all the obvious paths and took the path that didn't exist.

Don't get butt hurt that I called you out for making a statement you can't back up.
Last edited by bhaw on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby bhaw on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:04 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
no name wrote:Honestly if we are going to talk about the flyers series, in my eyes it comes down to game one blown offsides call Briere is called offside, we win game one, no meltdown, we win series. I know its simple but hey i believe if the flyers had their back to the wall losing game one we win the series, they crumble and meltdown we win.


Well, there's a bigger issue there that you touch on and it's what really separates championship teams from non-championship teams, and that's how you deal with adversity. If one blown call is responsible for the Pens losing the series, then they really didn't deserve to go past the first round. True championship teams have to deal with adversity, i.e. bad calls, missed calls, unfair acts, etc...


Especially if that blown call was halfway through a game that you were already leading by 3.


I don't think it's reasonable to blame the series on the one call. It wasn't the turning point or anything like that. It was just part of the collapse and a call you lose out on when the tide is turning on you. The adversity was the Flyers just continuing to come at the Pens. The Pens had very little push back other than the shenanigans in game 3.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Pens4Life on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:30 am

I completely disagree.

At some point you have to throw your body, or sacrifice your body out there. Lidstrom was flippin' Scott Stevens compared to Paul Martin. Seriously, Paul Martin is the equivalent of having a motorized hockey stick on the ice. Once he is forced into a position where he cannot use his stick, then he is utterly useless. There is a better chance the player he is defending slips on the ice then Martin doing anything about it.

Let's not even talk about when he goes to retieve a dump in.......that is a joke.

Softest player in the NHL ? Yeah, that seems right. And to answer the thread, I was excited when Martin was signed per his reputation, but it was an excitement for sight unseen. Two games into his career the guy showed how soft he was, and has gotten worse while with the Pens. He should be traded, and I am surprised ala Z.Malcklacklek he didn't ask for a trade.

If guys are not buying into the system, then get them out of here. Cause that is what it looked like in the playoffs. Half the defense was not buying in, and the poor play spread. Lovejoy for instance looked horrible, and is another that should be shopped in my opinion as well.

While I like the players we picked up so far this offseason, I still believe our defense is in a bad, bad way. Too many finese players, and not enough stay at home defensemen. Where for art thou Rob Scuderi.[/quote]

:thumb:
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby sil on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:08 am

bhaw wrote:The adversity was the Flyers just continuing to come at the Pens.


So you're saying we don't need Semin? :slug:

Spoiler:
Sorry mods
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Luckybreak on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:25 am

Froggy wrote:eh... gonchar has been pretty bad in ottawa. wouldn't say he's the better player right now.

the last 2 seasons...

gonchar-12g 52a 64pts, 34 of which came on the pp... -19
martin-5g 45a 50 pts, 14 of which came on the pp... +16

so, the bulk of gonchar's points come on the pp, and that coupled with his lousy +/- paint a picture of a not very special even strength player. martin scores less goals, doesn't contribute to the pp, but judging purely statistically, is a much better even strength defender. plus, gonchar makes more than martin


Nizzy nailed my point re what Gonch has likely brought to the Sens in terms of his non-statistical contributions. I'm certain Karlsson had a very good mentor despite the stats, and am willing to make the assumption (this may get me in more trouble with bhaw) that Gonchar was a good vet to have around (sorry I have no proof of this).
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Luckybreak on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:27 am

bhaw wrote:This can't be a serious response.


Yes I was serious. I reacted to your suggestion my statement might contribute to irrational love or hate of a player. I stated Martin had a bad year and management have never voiced dissatisfaction, not a particularly inflammable statement designed to incite irrational love or hate. I should have said 'publicly', but assumed this would be obvious.

bhaw wrote: I said was that you are claiming he is not being held accountable for his play. That is a BS statement because you have no freaking clue.


I don't pretend to know what may or may not have been said behind closed doors ("it's cool, Paul. Just get better next year") so please refrain from making unfounded assumptions and criticising me based on such.

bhaw wrote:Just because I call out your nonsense, you apparently made up an entire dialogue of my thoughts and feelings on Paul Martin and his play.


Please read my comments below and consider the hypocrisy of this insult.

You said I was "convinced Martin played bad" and "had no excuse for it". I do believe he played badly, but what gives you the right to assume I saw no excuse for it? I had previously defended his playing style suggesting a more physical partner might allow him to utilise his skill set more efficiently, and continued by suggesting reasons he may have underperformed.

bhaw wrote:I challenge either of you to find those mystery articles that say Shero was happy with his play. I'd love to see Shero's quotes on this.


Challenge accepted:

http://triblive.com/home/1119142-85/goa ... defenseman

General manager Ray Shero defended the duo in a big way.

“Both players are really good players in this league,” Shero said. “They’ve proven that over the course of their careers. Paul Martin was, over his last 20 games of the regular season, a plus-13.”

bhaw wrote:you chose to go down the route I didn't even take to try and "call me out" or discredit me. The funny part was that I left plenty of room to do that in that post, but you ignored all the obvious paths and took the path that didn't exist.

Don't get butt hurt that I called you out for making a statement you can't back up.


Well since you misunderstood my point in the first place -
bhaw wrote:my statement is defending the notion that Shero and DB are being irresponsible by not holding PM accountable for his play
- I will not bother to respond to your inane attempt to be the big man, nor rise to your childish insults. If you are that incapable of taking criticism then I would stop dishing it out in such large portions.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:33 am

I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby meow on Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:14 am

This entire Paul Martin argument is tiring.
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby offsides on Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:44 am

meow wrote:This entire Paul Martin argument is tiring.


I don't know, it is kind of fun to watch posters insult and bad mouth each other. :pop:
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby She'sTheFastest on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Who's Paul Martin?...Also :pop:
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Re: Paul Martin

Postby Luckybreak on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:42 pm

offsides wrote:
meow wrote:This entire Paul Martin argument is tiring.


I don't know, it is kind of fun to watch posters insult and bad mouth each other. :pop:


Not sure why it turned into that considering we seemed to agree about Martin himself lol!
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