Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Maestro on Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:06 am

If Calgary does consider tading Tkachuk, I hope new ownership seriously considers making that splash.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby KG on Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:24 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:Senators putting Murray on waivers today. Crazy how much he has fallen.

I wonder what percentage of his struggles are still related to his father's passing, and what percentage is related to him being stubborn. There were rumors of bad practice habits and refusing to listen to coaches adjustments near the end of his time here.


Murray cleared. Sent down.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Sams_Dog on Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:19 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:I 0% understand the trade Guentzel stuff.


1) Aside from Crosby/Malkin/Letang, he's their most valuable trade chip. He'd get you the best return, probably better than Malkin or Letang at this point. Probably.

2) He's 27 years old. If the team started a rebuild, he's not going to be part of it. If it takes 3-5 years to rebuild, he's going to be in his early 30's by the time this team would be ready to be back in the playoffs and/or Cup contenders. It might be a different story if Guentzel was 20-22, but he isn't.

3) Sorry to say, nobody in the league "fears" Jake Guentzel. In a way, he's James Neal 2.0 (but with a different skillset). Guentzel isn't someone teams have to specifically game plan against. He's not an Ovechkin, Kaprizov, Tarasenko, Barzal, Huberdeau, Landeskog, Rantenen, Tkachuk, or Marchand type/level player. He's a good player. He's just about a goal every other game average. But he doesn't have a dominating shot. He's not an outstanding puck-handling, deking winger. He's not amazing on defense. He's undersized. He does not drive play on his own without Crosby or Malkin. He has an above average shot, and will go to the dirty areas to score goals.


Rebuild does not mean "Get rid of everyone over x years old", with x being an silly low number.

Even in a rebuild you need some guys with skill to keep the team from completely failing on the ice. (As then everyone will also be in here whining about how the team losing is killing the young guys development blah blah blah)

Guentzel is far from old and cost controlled.

Even in a rebuild, Guentzel would be the exact kind of guy that you hold onto.

You are correct. Rebuild doesn't mean burn it all down. But, Guentzel is one of the few likely high value return assets they have. I cannot see him still being on this team if they start a rebuild. He's a guy who should get you at least a 1st and a high end prospect.

If you are going to keep some guys around, you are likely going to guys like Zucker or Kapanen over a Guentzel, simply because they aren't likely to get you similar assets to what you gave up to get them, and they aren't high end enough to pull in high level assets (even though GMJR gave up high end assets to get them).

I agree with your assessment in your other post about the draft picks. Even if the Penguins accumulated 4-5 1st rounders over the next 2 years, there's probably less than 10% chance that any of those picks plays in the next 2 years. You have to get really lucky. There are only maybe 3-5 guys each draft year that start in the NHL, and sometimes, it's because the drafting team is so devoid of talent they are willing to work on growing pains in the NHL rather than juniors.



No one likes looking back and thinking "What if?... maybe we could've...We'll never know now." I would hate for the team to start the rebuild by trading Letting and/or Malkin and then see them go on to play very well for another 2 or 3 years and help some other team win a Cup. I know that waiting could cost them team a year in the rebuild and I am NOT saying they should just give both guys 3 year deals and roll the dice. But a 2 or 3 year deal with a limited no trade clause makes sense to me. See what happens this year and then give the core a chance to stay together and make a run. If things go south then you have options to trade them for something. They'll get more than they will get at the deadline this year or for their rights in the summer before July 1. Rust will most likely be in line for a good raise and may not be in the cards. Fine. I think Guentzel should stay while the core is here.If there is a chance at a playoff run with Sid, Geno, and Letting and Co. then take it. That will never come around again. I can put up with an extra year of rebuilding in order to watch the team take another shot or maybe two.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:50 pm

Sams_Dog wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:I 0% understand the trade Guentzel stuff.


1) Aside from Crosby/Malkin/Letang, he's their most valuable trade chip. He'd get you the best return, probably better than Malkin or Letang at this point. Probably.

2) He's 27 years old. If the team started a rebuild, he's not going to be part of it. If it takes 3-5 years to rebuild, he's going to be in his early 30's by the time this team would be ready to be back in the playoffs and/or Cup contenders. It might be a different story if Guentzel was 20-22, but he isn't.

3) Sorry to say, nobody in the league "fears" Jake Guentzel. In a way, he's James Neal 2.0 (but with a different skillset). Guentzel isn't someone teams have to specifically game plan against. He's not an Ovechkin, Kaprizov, Tarasenko, Barzal, Huberdeau, Landeskog, Rantenen, Tkachuk, or Marchand type/level player. He's a good player. He's just about a goal every other game average. But he doesn't have a dominating shot. He's not an outstanding puck-handling, deking winger. He's not amazing on defense. He's undersized. He does not drive play on his own without Crosby or Malkin. He has an above average shot, and will go to the dirty areas to score goals.


Rebuild does not mean "Get rid of everyone over x years old", with x being an silly low number.

Even in a rebuild you need some guys with skill to keep the team from completely failing on the ice. (As then everyone will also be in here whining about how the team losing is killing the young guys development blah blah blah)

Guentzel is far from old and cost controlled.

Even in a rebuild, Guentzel would be the exact kind of guy that you hold onto.

You are correct. Rebuild doesn't mean burn it all down. But, Guentzel is one of the few likely high value return assets they have. I cannot see him still being on this team if they start a rebuild. He's a guy who should get you at least a 1st and a high end prospect.

If you are going to keep some guys around, you are likely going to guys like Zucker or Kapanen over a Guentzel, simply because they aren't likely to get you similar assets to what you gave up to get them, and they aren't high end enough to pull in high level assets (even though GMJR gave up high end assets to get them).

I agree with your assessment in your other post about the draft picks. Even if the Penguins accumulated 4-5 1st rounders over the next 2 years, there's probably less than 10% chance that any of those picks plays in the next 2 years. You have to get really lucky. There are only maybe 3-5 guys each draft year that start in the NHL, and sometimes, it's because the drafting team is so devoid of talent they are willing to work on growing pains in the NHL rather than juniors.



No one likes looking back and thinking "What if?... maybe we could've...We'll never know now." I would hate for the team to start the rebuild by trading Letting and/or Malkin and then see them go on to play very well for another 2 or 3 years and help some other team win a Cup. I know that waiting could cost them team a year in the rebuild and I am NOT saying they should just give both guys 3 year deals and roll the dice. But a 2 or 3 year deal with a limited no trade clause makes sense to me. See what happens this year and then give the core a chance to stay together and make a run. If things go south then you have options to trade them for something. They'll get more than they will get at the deadline this year or for their rights in the summer before July 1. Rust will most likely be in line for a good raise and may not be in the cards. Fine. I think Guentzel should stay while the core is here.If there is a chance at a playoff run with Sid, Geno, and Letting and Co. then take it. That will never come around again. I can put up with an extra year of rebuilding in order to watch the team take another shot or maybe two.

I'm almost certain Malkin and Letang are going to stay, and that is what ownership will do. I'm also very confident that it is the wrong move.

I've said it a few times in this massive thread, that the decline for all 3 are clearly in full effect. They've had 3 poor playoff showings. Crosby's has seen his multi goal and multi point games year over year fall off considerably. It's still early and I'm still giving him another few weeks to do evaluations, but Crosby looks awful so far. Malkin may do well in the regular season, but he's been poor in the post-season, and been very dependent on the PP to pickup points the last 3 post-seasons. Letang, honestly, has been the most consistent player of the 3. This team cannot go anywhere with Sid and Geno as half a point per game players in the playoffs. Sid and Geno need to be THE GUYS...leading in points and goals. If they aren't, well, there isn't much else on this team that you can count on to pick up the slack.

The longer you hold onto Malkin and Letang, the more their trade value goes down. You are likely to get a better deal at the trade deadline for those guys if there is a major hole (injury) those guys can fill on a strong Cup team...even as rentals.

If this team wants to make one last run this year, they need to pickup a high end winger who can drive play, like a Tarasenko. That's the biggest thing I see them missing right now. But even then, based on what I have seen the past 3 years, I'm very bearish on them being able to get past the 2nd round. There are too many other good, deep teams for this team to be a strong contender with what they have left and the age of the players they are counting on to provide big portions of their playoff production.

I'd be ecstatic if they prove me wrong, and I'm not a guy that places bets....but if someone said I had to place a bet on the Penguins, I'd bet against them going deep/winning the Cup in probably less than a second. No hesitation.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:52 pm

Black Friday Weekend NHL deal:

-Evander Kane, 50-75% off, comes with a free full set of baggage.

Act now, or don't. You probably shouldn't.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Yoshi_66 on Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:15 pm

Well I've already got his jersey so let's go pens!
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:19 am

KG wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:Senators putting Murray on waivers today. Crazy how much he has fallen.

I wonder what percentage of his struggles are still related to his father's passing, and what percentage is related to him being stubborn. There were rumors of bad practice habits and refusing to listen to coaches adjustments near the end of his time here.


Murray cleared. Sent down.

I saw some stuff on line that again leads more credibility to the "stubborn" or difficult scenario. Hearing that Murray's camp isn't happy with what has transpired (him getting waived/going to AHL). Other person wondered if he would go down and work on his game, or be stubborn and pout, and be embarrassed about being sent down and continue to go downhill.

Sounds like Murray has an attitude issue that started near his end of time with Pittsburgh, and has followed him to Ottawa. Or it's all just rumors that continue to follow him everywhere.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:21 am

Not sure if anyone saw that Marc Bergevin was fired over the weekend. So was assistant GM, as well as someone higher up in hockey ops.

I can't say this was completely unexpected, as there were rumors over the summer that Montreal wouldn't extend him, as well as rumors that he didn't want to stay GM long-term. Scott Mellanby had a position with Montreal hockey ops, was interested in the position, but I believe Montreal told him they wanted a French GM. Mellanby subsequently quit his role with the Canadiens after that feedback.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Maestro on Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:45 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:Senators putting Murray on waivers today. Crazy how much he has fallen.

I wonder what percentage of his struggles are still related to his father's passing, and what percentage is related to him being stubborn. There were rumors of bad practice habits and refusing to listen to coaches adjustments near the end of his time here.


Murray cleared. Sent down.

I saw some stuff on line that again leads more credibility to the "stubborn" or difficult scenario. Hearing that Murray's camp isn't happy with what has transpired (him getting waived/going to AHL). Other person wondered if he would go down and work on his game, or be stubborn and pout, and be embarrassed about being sent down and continue to go downhill.

Sounds like Murray has an attitude issue that started near his end of time with Pittsburgh, and has followed him to Ottawa. Or it's all just rumors that continue to follow him everywhere.


When Murray's dad died, he changed.
As for his camp not "being happy" - I'm sure Ottawa would love not paying him 21 mil over the next 3 years. Maybe Matt can just roam the earth, helping those in need. That way, everyone's happy.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Daniel on Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:35 pm

FLPensFan wrote:I'm almost certain Malkin and Letang are going to stay, and that is what ownership will do. I'm also very confident that it is the wrong move.

I've said it a few times in this massive thread, that the decline for all 3 are clearly in full effect. They've had 3 poor playoff showings. Crosby's has seen his multi goal and multi point games year over year fall off considerably. It's still early and I'm still giving him another few weeks to do evaluations, but Crosby looks awful so far. Malkin may do well in the regular season, but he's been poor in the post-season, and been very dependent on the PP to pickup points the last 3 post-seasons. Letang, honestly, has been the most consistent player of the 3. This team cannot go anywhere with Sid and Geno as half a point per game players in the playoffs. Sid and Geno need to be THE GUYS...leading in points and goals. If they aren't, well, there isn't much else on this team that you can count on to pick up the slack.

The longer you hold onto Malkin and Letang, the more their trade value goes down. You are likely to get a better deal at the trade deadline for those guys if there is a major hole (injury) those guys can fill on a strong Cup team...even as rentals.

If this team wants to make one last run this year, they need to pickup a high end winger who can drive play, like a Tarasenko. That's the biggest thing I see them missing right now. But even then, based on what I have seen the past 3 years, I'm very bearish on them being able to get past the 2nd round. There are too many other good, deep teams for this team to be a strong contender with what they have left and the age of the players they are counting on to provide big portions of their playoff production.

I'd be ecstatic if they prove me wrong, and I'm not a guy that places bets....but if someone said I had to place a bet on the Penguins, I'd bet against them going deep/winning the Cup in probably less than a second. No hesitation.


I don’t think the playoff decline is 100% their fault but the fault of FGMJR and MS for the team they built around them and their unwillingness to adapt to the 3 getting older. Obviously they are declining, but the Penguins still get playoffs that are dependent on superstar centers. Maybe Carter to some degree, but he’s still an aging superstar in his own right.

This team has the ability to play a more defensive posture but MS won’t do it when Crosby and Malkin are playing, or it appears that way. The winning streak had what 2 goals against total (something ridiculous like that) and a great defensive game plan. MS won’t adjust to the aging superstars and still thinks pressure pressure pressure is the way to do it.

Actually, it seems that the entire franchise won’t adjust and is it really a surprise the team hasn’t done well the last three years?
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:13 pm

Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I'm almost certain Malkin and Letang are going to stay, and that is what ownership will do. I'm also very confident that it is the wrong move.

I've said it a few times in this massive thread, that the decline for all 3 are clearly in full effect. They've had 3 poor playoff showings. Crosby's has seen his multi goal and multi point games year over year fall off considerably. It's still early and I'm still giving him another few weeks to do evaluations, but Crosby looks awful so far. Malkin may do well in the regular season, but he's been poor in the post-season, and been very dependent on the PP to pickup points the last 3 post-seasons. Letang, honestly, has been the most consistent player of the 3. This team cannot go anywhere with Sid and Geno as half a point per game players in the playoffs. Sid and Geno need to be THE GUYS...leading in points and goals. If they aren't, well, there isn't much else on this team that you can count on to pick up the slack.

The longer you hold onto Malkin and Letang, the more their trade value goes down. You are likely to get a better deal at the trade deadline for those guys if there is a major hole (injury) those guys can fill on a strong Cup team...even as rentals.

If this team wants to make one last run this year, they need to pickup a high end winger who can drive play, like a Tarasenko. That's the biggest thing I see them missing right now. But even then, based on what I have seen the past 3 years, I'm very bearish on them being able to get past the 2nd round. There are too many other good, deep teams for this team to be a strong contender with what they have left and the age of the players they are counting on to provide big portions of their playoff production.

I'd be ecstatic if they prove me wrong, and I'm not a guy that places bets....but if someone said I had to place a bet on the Penguins, I'd bet against them going deep/winning the Cup in probably less than a second. No hesitation.


I don’t think the playoff decline is 100% their fault but the fault of FGMJR and MS for the team they built around them and their unwillingness to adapt to the 3 getting older. Obviously they are declining, but the Penguins still get playoffs that are dependent on superstar centers. Maybe Carter to some degree, but he’s still an aging superstar in his own right.

This team has the ability to play a more defensive posture but MS won’t do it when Crosby and Malkin are playing, or it appears that way. The winning streak had what 2 goals against total (something ridiculous like that) and a great defensive game plan. MS won’t adjust to the aging superstars and still thinks pressure pressure pressure is the way to do it.

Actually, it seems that the entire franchise won’t adjust and is it really a surprise the team hasn’t done well the last three years?

I think there is a lot of blame to go around on the past 3 post-seasons:

1) Crosby, Malkin, and Guentzel were all ice cold. Call it a slow start, call it whatever you want, but those are their 3 biggest offensive guns, and none of them took charge and stood out. People want to point to Malkin having 5 points in 4 games...4 of those were assists, and 3 of the 5 points (including the lone goal) were on the PP. Everyone wants to blame the goaltending, but the stars who are paid the most still didn't shine. Carter (4), Zucker (2), Rust (2), and 4 others each with a goal should have been plenty of secondary scoring. The top dollar guys did not produce, and haven't the past 3 post-seasons.

2) Sullivan has shown some of what appears to be that Bylsma stubbornness at times, where he makes questionable lineup decisions, or refuses to adjust well. But some of that is also his players failing to execute. I don't absolve FGMJR, but I think Rutherford made every attempt to do what he could around the core. He got Brassard, he got Zucker, he got Kapanen, he got Ceci. Right or wrong, he at least made attempts to make moves to better the team. There are of course a few gaffes like Jack Johnson and Mark Jankowski and Bjugstad, but I can't blame the guy for not trying. At the end of the day, Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Guentzel make up almost 40% of the cap. It's not easy to build a team around those guys when that core group isn't performing.

3) In terms of adapting, Guentzel is too young to need to do anything different except maybe eat a few elephants over the summer to pack on some weight. I feel like Sid and Letang have both adjusted their games to some degree. Malkin, on the other hand, still seems to want to play like he's 25 and try and rush through 4 defenders too many times, instead of using the system to gain the zone and setup on offense. Again, I'm not a system guy....but, is it Sullivan refusing to adjust, or is it the players refusing to play his style when at full strength. The pressure pressure pressure worked very well in the beginning of this year. It's more about forechecking pressure than constant offensive pressure. Sullivan's system, when played to a T, is aggressive on the puck and forecheck, play tight defensively, and force the team into mistakes that lead to offensive chances. It can create plenty of enough offensive chances when followed. I just don't know if any group of players has the will and determination to play that style for 82 plus games.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Daniel on Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:32 pm

I think there is a lot of blame to go around on the past 3 post-seasons:

FLPensFan wrote:1) Crosby, Malkin, and Guentzel were all ice cold. Call it a slow start, call it whatever you want, but those are their 3 biggest offensive guns, and none of them took charge and stood out. People want to point to Malkin having 5 points in 4 games...4 of those were assists, and 3 of the 5 points (including the lone goal) were on the PP. Everyone wants to blame the goaltending, but the stars who are paid the most still didn't shine. Carter (4), Zucker (2), Rust (2), and 4 others each with a goal should have been plenty of secondary scoring. The top dollar guys did not produce, and haven't the past 3 post-seasons.


I agree they were all ice cold but I think the reason is that there isn't one superstar forward, including Crosby/Malkin at this stage of their career. All the forwards are complementary due to age or skill level. I honestly thought Guentzel would be the next superstar forward, and he still might, but I think his shoulder injury seriously hurt his progression.

FLPensFan wrote:2) Sullivan has shown some of what appears to be that Bylsma stubbornness at times, where he makes questionable lineup decisions, or refuses to adjust well. But some of that is also his players failing to execute. I don't absolve FGMJR, but I think Rutherford made every attempt to do what he could around the core. He got Brassard, he got Zucker, he got Kapanen, he got Ceci. Right or wrong, he at least made attempts to make moves to better the team. There are of course a few gaffes like Jack Johnson and Mark Jankowski and Bjugstad, but I can't blame the guy for not trying. At the end of the day, Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Guentzel make up almost 40% of the cap. It's not easy to build a team around those guys when that core group isn't performing.


We've discussed Sullivan ad nauseam so won't add to what you said. My issue with Rutherford is this. He got a bunch of complementary forwards assuming Crosby and Malkin were in their prime. With all the wasted cap space JR gave to your list of players, he might have been able to get one All Star. I know neither of us are privy to what goes on behind the scenes, but we see a lot of teams getting better players for less cost in terms of trades and/or signings. No way Zucker is worth a 1st round pick let alone a 1st and top prospect as just one example.

FLPensFan wrote:3) In terms of adapting, Guentzel is too young to need to do anything different except maybe eat a few elephants over the summer to pack on some weight. I feel like Sid and Letang have both adjusted their games to some degree. Malkin, on the other hand, still seems to want to play like he's 25 and try and rush through 4 defenders too many times, instead of using the system to gain the zone and setup on offense. Again, I'm not a system guy....but, is it Sullivan refusing to adjust, or is it the players refusing to play his style when at full strength. The pressure pressure pressure worked very well in the beginning of this year. It's more about forechecking pressure than constant offensive pressure. Sullivan's system, when played to a T, is aggressive on the puck and forecheck, play tight defensively, and force the team into mistakes that lead to offensive chances. It can create plenty of enough offensive chances when followed. I just don't know if any group of players has the will and determination to play that style for 82 plus games.


I think the system is too aggressive for today's skill level of Crosby and Malkin. They want to build the team around two mid 30s forwards but don't take into account the fact that both have slowed down. You're right, Sid has adjusted, and to some extent so has Letang, and Malkin hasn't. I think both Sullivan and Malkin think it's 2017 still and they need to slow things down a bit. Doesn't mean they can't forecheck at all, but they try to play fast everywhere when perhaps a more methodical approach with less gambling is needed. Heck, why not slow things down a bit and build the team/system around Jarry. Try to win 2-1 or 3-2 with a more conservative approach. Not sure it could be done on the fly during the season, but perhaps after the Olympic break?

One other thing I've noticed. When Sid/Geno are out, Sullivan tends to go defensive with Bleuger and tries to match lines better. Set a defensive tone early rather than an offensive posture. Just something I've noticed.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Cow_Master66 on Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:17 pm

Sounds like you are suggesting when Crosby and Malkin are in the lineup the coach adjusts the system to not include team defense.

The stars can’t, or won’t, play the system. It’s not the coaches fault. Is he a bit stubborn with lineup decisions? Probably, but it’s highly unlikely you’ll find a coach that’s made it to the show who doesn’t have a specific type of player he likes.

Do you know how many times I had to stick up for big lips Erod last season because everyone here wanted to run him down? First it was Erods fault, then it was Sullys for playing him, this year it Sullys for something else. Totally ignoring the fact half the team is always hurt.

Maybe try to stop finding someone to blame (unless it’s Biden or Fauci) and just accept the fact this team is a real dark horse to make the playoffs. And quite frankly that’s ok….
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:32 pm

Daniel wrote:I think there is a lot of blame to go around on the past 3 post-seasons:

FLPensFan wrote:1) Crosby, Malkin, and Guentzel were all ice cold. Call it a slow start, call it whatever you want, but those are their 3 biggest offensive guns, and none of them took charge and stood out. People want to point to Malkin having 5 points in 4 games...4 of those were assists, and 3 of the 5 points (including the lone goal) were on the PP. Everyone wants to blame the goaltending, but the stars who are paid the most still didn't shine. Carter (4), Zucker (2), Rust (2), and 4 others each with a goal should have been plenty of secondary scoring. The top dollar guys did not produce, and haven't the past 3 post-seasons.


I agree they were all ice cold but I think the reason is that there isn't one superstar forward, including Crosby/Malkin at this stage of their career. All the forwards are complementary due to age or skill level. I honestly thought Guentzel would be the next superstar forward, and he still might, but I think his shoulder injury seriously hurt his progression.

FLPensFan wrote:2) Sullivan has shown some of what appears to be that Bylsma stubbornness at times, where he makes questionable lineup decisions, or refuses to adjust well. But some of that is also his players failing to execute. I don't absolve FGMJR, but I think Rutherford made every attempt to do what he could around the core. He got Brassard, he got Zucker, he got Kapanen, he got Ceci. Right or wrong, he at least made attempts to make moves to better the team. There are of course a few gaffes like Jack Johnson and Mark Jankowski and Bjugstad, but I can't blame the guy for not trying. At the end of the day, Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Guentzel make up almost 40% of the cap. It's not easy to build a team around those guys when that core group isn't performing.


We've discussed Sullivan ad nauseam so won't add to what you said. My issue with Rutherford is this. He got a bunch of complementary forwards assuming Crosby and Malkin were in their prime. With all the wasted cap space JR gave to your list of players, he might have been able to get one All Star. I know neither of us are privy to what goes on behind the scenes, but we see a lot of teams getting better players for less cost in terms of trades and/or signings. No way Zucker is worth a 1st round pick let alone a 1st and top prospect as just one example.

FLPensFan wrote:3) In terms of adapting, Guentzel is too young to need to do anything different except maybe eat a few elephants over the summer to pack on some weight. I feel like Sid and Letang have both adjusted their games to some degree. Malkin, on the other hand, still seems to want to play like he's 25 and try and rush through 4 defenders too many times, instead of using the system to gain the zone and setup on offense. Again, I'm not a system guy....but, is it Sullivan refusing to adjust, or is it the players refusing to play his style when at full strength. The pressure pressure pressure worked very well in the beginning of this year. It's more about forechecking pressure than constant offensive pressure. Sullivan's system, when played to a T, is aggressive on the puck and forecheck, play tight defensively, and force the team into mistakes that lead to offensive chances. It can create plenty of enough offensive chances when followed. I just don't know if any group of players has the will and determination to play that style for 82 plus games.


I think the system is too aggressive for today's skill level of Crosby and Malkin. They want to build the team around two mid 30s forwards but don't take into account the fact that both have slowed down. You're right, Sid has adjusted, and to some extent so has Letang, and Malkin hasn't. I think both Sullivan and Malkin think it's 2017 still and they need to slow things down a bit. Doesn't mean they can't forecheck at all, but they try to play fast everywhere when perhaps a more methodical approach with less gambling is needed. Heck, why not slow things down a bit and build the team/system around Jarry. Try to win 2-1 or 3-2 with a more conservative approach. Not sure it could be done on the fly during the season, but perhaps after the Olympic break?

One other thing I've noticed. When Sid/Geno are out, Sullivan tends to go defensive with Bleuger and tries to match lines better. Set a defensive tone early rather than an offensive posture. Just something I've noticed.

Reading through your comments, I think we are closer aligned than what I first thought. I've said a few times recently the Penguins need another winger. A true top 6 winger, someone like a Tarasenko, who can drive play on their own. Guentzel puts up the numbers, but struggles when Sid and Geno aren't there. He can't do it on his own. Zucker and Kapanen are top 9 guys, more suited for 2nd or 3rd line duty as complimentary guys. Rust, I'm still on the fence. I don't think his numbers would be as good without Sid and Geno, and like Guentzel, Rust isn't a guy who just goes out and plays and puts up points on his own. He's still secondary as well. You look at a team like Boston who has Pastranak as their 3rd wheel with Bergeron and Marchand the older guys. DeBrusk might have been another, but he's fallen off and reportedly requested a trade this weekend. Even adding Taylor Hall, who is only 30. Boston has a bit more star power beyond Bergeron and Marchand. Penguins need a bit more of that.

I think I get what you are saying and are on the same page about some of the Rutherford spending. Spend 5M on a good star player, instead of spreading out 5M over 3-4 mediocre replaceable parts (Jankowski, Simon, etc).

Rutherford overvalued his targets and overpaid. I didn't think so at the time. Zucker hasn't been Brassard level bad, but, my expectation of him was always Bryan Rust with more offensive pop. Then Bryan Rust went and popped off for 2 seasons, while Zucker struggled. Similar with Kapanen...I was glad to see some speedy youth be added to the lineup, but didn't expect him to be a bonafide star. At the end of the day, he is complimentary as well. Last year was a career year for him, but he too seems lost without the right center in the middle.

I also think the team, both Sullivan and FGMJR, get too enamored with a certain aspect of a player, whether it's one ability they do well...what they think that player MIGHT be able to do well, or what that player USED to do well.

But I think we are where we are at now. We cannot go back. They squandered the last of their prime years. It's really a stretch for me to see this core winning another Cup. If they want to make one last go of it this season, then they are going to lose some of the assets they would gain by trading a Malkin or Letang at the deadline, vs just trading away their rights over the summer or letting them walk.

If they want another run this year...find a way to get Tarasenko for Rust (not a direct trade, but Tarasenko is a RW) or try a Zucker plus for Tarasenko and move Rust to LW, go get a better backup goalie, and pickup some cheap depth. Re-sign Letang, and move Malkin's rights over the summer. Free up the cap to bring in a younger, cheaper center (Trocheck), and another quality 3rd liner. Utilize DOC and Rodrigues more next year...maybe bring back Heinen for the right price. Give the best one of Poulin, Legare, Hallander or Puustinen a spot on the team next year, and let the other 3 spend the season fighting to take that spot away from them.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Daniel on Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:34 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:Sounds like you are suggesting when Crosby and Malkin are in the lineup the coach adjusts the system to not include team defense.

The stars can’t, or won’t, play the system. It’s not the coaches fault. Is he a bit stubborn with lineup decisions? Probably, but it’s highly unlikely you’ll find a coach that’s made it to the show who doesn’t have a specific type of player he likes.

Do you know how many times I had to stick up for big lips Erod last season because everyone here wanted to run him down? First it was Erods fault, then it was Sullys for playing him, this year it Sullys for something else. Totally ignoring the fact half the team is always hurt.

Maybe try to stop finding someone to blame (unless it’s Biden or Fauci) and just accept the fact this team is a real dark horse to make the playoffs. And quite frankly that’s ok….


Not at all, I just think Malkin and Crosby take chances within the system that others won't take. Things they could have done 4-5 years ago but not today.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby BigMcK on Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:53 am

If Jarry has settled into his position, and continues to contribute to points in the regular season, could he be the centerpiece to build around? Scrap fire wagon / run and gun, think clutch and grab, ala, New Jersey Devils in front of Martin Brodeur. Win with Defense, not Offense.

Food for thought.

I hate the idea based on personal preference, yet, I would love to see another Cup handed to Crosby with Mario in the building.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Daniel on Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:42 am

BigMcK wrote:If Jarry has settled into his position, and continues to contribute to points in the regular season, could he be the centerpiece to build around? Scrap fire wagon / run and gun, think clutch and grab, ala, New Jersey Devils in front of Martin Brodeur. Win with Defense, not Offense.

Food for thought.

I hate the idea based on personal preference, yet, I would love to see another Cup handed to Crosby with Mario in the building.


I think short of getting a game changing forward that’s what is going to have to happen. Look at how pathetic the SO was last night. MS didn’t even trust one of his 2nd line wingers in a 7 person shootout. I get Crosby, Letang, Guentzel, but Rodrigues and McGinn? Not sure about their shootout stats, but it would be nice to have a dynamic forward in the lineup to drop every other forward down or out of the lineup.

Right now the team has nothing but complementary forwards, including Crosby at this stage of his career, and no one another team has to game plan for. I think a more defensive posture is necessary.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby dark_forces on Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:00 pm

Daniel wrote:
BigMcK wrote:If Jarry has settled into his position, and continues to contribute to points in the regular season, could he be the centerpiece to build around? Scrap fire wagon / run and gun, think clutch and grab, ala, New Jersey Devils in front of Martin Brodeur. Win with Defense, not Offense.

Food for thought.

I hate the idea based on personal preference, yet, I would love to see another Cup handed to Crosby with Mario in the building.


I think short of getting a game changing forward that’s what is going to have to happen. Look at how pathetic the SO was last night. MS didn’t even trust one of his 2nd line wingers in a 7 person shootout. I get Crosby, Letang, Guentzel, but Rodrigues and McGinn? Not sure about their shootout stats, but it would be nice to have a dynamic forward in the lineup to drop every other forward down or out of the lineup.

Right now the team has nothing but complementary forwards, including Crosby at this stage of his career, and no one another team has to game plan for. I think a more defensive posture is necessary.


I think overall they're playing pretty buttoned-up defensively. I'll still wait until Malkin returns to see if they keep it up and how the lines shakedown. Although, my hunch is they need another, newer version of Kessel so they'll again have three lines that potentially can do damage. Who that is and what the cost would be is unknown.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:19 pm

Do you think they regret not protecting McCann?
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Steve Dave on Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:24 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Do you think they regret not protecting McCann?

McCann failed to show up in the playoffs for Pit and while at Center had poor faceoff numbers. This year he is doing well for a poorly constructed team. He is also -5 despite putting up strong offensive numbers. Had the Pens kept him they likely lose Blueger or Carter. Both are better overall centers than McCann.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:45 pm

Steve Dave wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Do you think they regret not protecting McCann?

McCann failed to show up in the playoffs for Pit and while at Center had poor faceoff numbers. This year he is doing well for a poorly constructed team. He is also -5 despite putting up strong offensive numbers. Had the Pens kept him they likely lose Blueger or Carter. Both are better overall centers than McCann.

They could have protected everyone the way that they did, and then lost McCann OR Tanev. There really wasn't a reason to lose both players. Rutherford put the spin out there that they needed to clear cap space, but this was poor asset management...similar to Florida giving Reilly Smith and Jonathan Marchessault to Vegas because they didn't want to give them big contracts.

McCann should have been worth a bit more in trade, but Rutherford again falls in love with a specific player, this time Hallander, so is content getting him back in the deal.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Sams_Dog on Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:22 pm

If Malkin and/or Letting are traded at the deadline - and I think that happens only if the team is out of the playoff picture at that point - then that will have to mean that the rebuilding has begun. They're not going to trade those guys to re-tool for a few more years. That wouldn't be smart and would prolong the rebuild that is eventually coming. The assets that they can get for those two guys now are really important to a rebuild.

I think what its being overlooked in all of this is what Sid will want to do if they are both traded. Not that he will take it personally or anything but is he really going to want to stick around for three more years if the team is rebuilding without Malkin and Letang? I don't see that happening. So I think the choice is: A) sign both to short-term deals with limited MNC for 2-3 years and take it year-by-year B) trade one or both for younger players that can step in now and "re-tool" for Sid's last years OR C) trade both for draft picks and prospects and probably see Sid retire sooner or get traded out of town to a contender.

I think option C goes against everything that Mario, Burkle, and the core have said for years. Even thought FSG is paying the bills I don't think Mario would be good with that and they HAD to have talked about that already. That leaves A or B and I really think A makes the most sense. Yes, you won't get as much for them later on but I think it's worth it. Take the shot while the window is at least open a bit.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby dark_forces on Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:38 pm

Sams_Dog wrote:If Malkin and/or Letting are traded at the deadline - and I think that happens only if the team is out of the playoff picture at that point - then that will have to mean that the rebuilding has begun. They're not going to trade those guys to re-tool for a few more years. That wouldn't be smart and would prolong the rebuild that is eventually coming. The assets that they can get for those two guys now are really important to a rebuild.

I think what its being overlooked in all of this is what Sid will want to do if they are both traded. Not that he will take it personally or anything but is he really going to want to stick around for three more years if the team is rebuilding without Malkin and Letang? I don't see that happening. So I think the choice is: A) sign both to short-term deals with limited MNC for 2-3 years and take it year-by-year B) trade one or both for younger players that can step in now and "re-tool" for Sid's last years OR C) trade both for draft picks and prospects and probably see Sid retire sooner or get traded out of town to a contender.

I think option C goes against everything that Mario, Burkle, and the core have said for years. Even thought FSG is paying the bills I don't think Mario would be good with that and they HAD to have talked about that already. That leaves A or B and I really think A makes the most sense. Yes, you won't get as much for them later on but I think it's worth it. Take the shot while the window is at least open a bit.


A) seems the most logical, assuming they are still in a playoff spot and playing fairly well. I still think we'll see some moves either at the deadline or in the offseason, but nothing seismic like Letang or Malkin being dealt. I could see P.O. Joseph (because Hextall doesn't seem tied to him) getting dealt for another young, on-the-cusp player of a different playing style, or Zucker being dealt to alleviate cap space and to bring in a different style/type of player. The Rust situation intrigues me more than anything because that's a situation where they're not tied to him and he'll certainly command a lot of $ in the open market. So, it comes down to paying him and hoping he takes a bit of a discount, trading him at the deadline, or trading him just ahead of UFA to a team he'll sign with in exchange for draft picks.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby Daniel on Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:12 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Steve Dave wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Do you think they regret not protecting McCann?

McCann failed to show up in the playoffs for Pit and while at Center had poor faceoff numbers. This year he is doing well for a poorly constructed team. He is also -5 despite putting up strong offensive numbers. Had the Pens kept him they likely lose Blueger or Carter. Both are better overall centers than McCann.

They could have protected everyone the way that they did, and then lost McCann OR Tanev. There really wasn't a reason to lose both players. Rutherford put the spin out there that they needed to clear cap space, but this was poor asset management...similar to Florida giving Reilly Smith and Jonathan Marchessault to Vegas because they didn't want to give them big contracts.

McCann should have been worth a bit more in trade, but Rutherford again falls in love with a specific player, this time Hallander, so is content getting him back in the deal.


Wasn't that an RH trade? I think the trade was more about McCann's inability to produce than anything else.
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Re: Penguins summer and 21-22 roster decisions

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:34 pm

Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Steve Dave wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Do you think they regret not protecting McCann?

McCann failed to show up in the playoffs for Pit and while at Center had poor faceoff numbers. This year he is doing well for a poorly constructed team. He is also -5 despite putting up strong offensive numbers. Had the Pens kept him they likely lose Blueger or Carter. Both are better overall centers than McCann.

They could have protected everyone the way that they did, and then lost McCann OR Tanev. There really wasn't a reason to lose both players. Rutherford put the spin out there that they needed to clear cap space, but this was poor asset management...similar to Florida giving Reilly Smith and Jonathan Marchessault to Vegas because they didn't want to give them big contracts.

McCann should have been worth a bit more in trade, but Rutherford again falls in love with a specific player, this time Hallander, so is content getting him back in the deal.


Wasn't that an RH trade? I think the trade was more about McCann's inability to produce than anything else.


Yeah I think this was Hextall
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