Moving forward

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Re: Moving forward

Postby pekkasteele on Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:17 am

Mythodikal wrote:Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!


That is on Sullivan, because, you know, JR called up the younger 4C in Blueger just a few games before the trade.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby longtimefan on Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:23 am

pekkasteele wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!


That is on Sullivan, because, you know, JR called up the younger 4C in Blueger just a few games before the trade.


Getting younger isn't about this season. It's about next season and beyond. I don't care if a guy is 95 if he is productive and helps the team. Getting younger is for the future.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Mythodikal on Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:32 am

But in what way is Cullen productive or at all helping this team?
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Mythodikal on Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:38 am

pekkasteele wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!


That is on Sullivan, because, you know, JR called up the younger 4C in Blueger just a few games before the trade.



I definitely agree that roster management is a big factor. The use of the parts is a definite question mark. I definitely have strong opinions on the use of certain cogs, but I can't pretend to know the best structure of this line up. There are a lot of variables.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Pitts on Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:31 pm

Mythodikal wrote:But in what way is Cullen productive or at all helping this team?

Really? Do you watch the games? You know he went 11-0 in faceoffs against Calgary and is a stalwart on the PK? It isn't all about goals and assists.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby pekkasteele on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:11 pm

longtimefan wrote:
pekkasteele wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:Bjugstad as 3C and McCann as 4C... oh wait... most people say that Bjugstad isn't actually a center and should play wing, so now McCann is 3C, who is 4C? 42 year old Matt Cullen. So much younger!


That is on Sullivan, because, you know, JR called up the younger 4C in Blueger just a few games before the trade.


Getting younger isn't about this season. It's about next season and beyond. I don't care if a guy is 95 if he is productive and helps the team. Getting younger is for the future.


All thou I think getting younger is important to stay competitive this post was not about that, it was that Mythodikal was saying that JR brought in McCann and Bjug to get younger at center but messed up since Bjug is better at wing and we ended up with an older center instead. Well, we did not, we got a good 3c and a good RW that can play center. Like that was a bad thing. And we did not, as he say "end up with a 42 year old 4c". We finally got what many have been waiting for, Blueger in the NHL to show what he can do. It is on Sully to chose to play the 42yo instead of the 24yo at 4c.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Owchar76 on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:28 pm

Pitts wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:But in what way is Cullen productive or at all helping this team?

Really? Do you watch the games? You know he went 11-0 in faceoffs against Calgary and is a stalwart on the PK? It isn't all about goals and assists.


11-0 is awesome. It still only vaulted him to 48% on the season. Not good at all. Good game on the dot, but bad season on the dot.

Cullen is dead last on the Pens in terms of controlling shots at even strength. 40.84%. Embarrassingly bad.
Cullen is at the bottom in Scoring Chances For % at 45.30. He's minimally ahead of Bjugstad and McCann.

In terms of suppressing shots on the PK, he's been pretty good. One of the Pens better players on the PK. Basically he's playing like a PK specialist that offers nothing 5 on 5. One of of the biggest issues right now is depth and not having the bottom two lines get hemmed in their zone shift after shift. Cullen at a miserable 40% at 5 on 5 is killing this team. Yes he does start in the defensive zone more often than not, but he also loses more faceoffs than he wins, which puts him behind the 8 ball every shift it seems.

There aren't a ton of options out there, but it doesn't seem like there would be any sort of drop off if they actually did experiment with scratching Cullen.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby LimerickPensFan on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:58 pm

Owchar76 wrote:
Pitts wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:But in what way is Cullen productive or at all helping this team?

Really? Do you watch the games? You know he went 11-0 in faceoffs against Calgary and is a stalwart on the PK? It isn't all about goals and assists.


11-0 is awesome. It still only vaulted him to 48% on the season. Not good at all. Good game on the dot, but bad season on the dot.

Cullen is dead last on the Pens in terms of controlling shots at even strength. 40.84%. Embarrassingly bad.
Cullen is at the bottom in Scoring Chances For % at 45.30. He's minimally ahead of Bjugstad and McCann.

In terms of suppressing shots on the PK, he's been pretty good. One of the Pens better players on the PK. Basically he's playing like a PK specialist that offers nothing 5 on 5. One of of the biggest issues right now is depth and not having the bottom two lines get hemmed in their zone shift after shift. Cullen at a miserable 40% at 5 on 5 is killing this team. Yes he does start in the defensive zone more often than not, but he also loses more faceoffs than he wins, which puts him behind the 8 ball every shift it seems.

There aren't a ton of options out there, but it doesn't seem like there would be any sort of drop off if they actually did experiment with scratching Cullen.

Amazing that a fourth line isn't toward the top of the league in advanced stats. I'll bet that doesn't hold true anywhere else.

Seriously. It's the fourth line. You expect them to have numbers like the first line. You understand that a team can't be made up of 12 Sid Crosbys playing offense and 6 Kris Letangs playing defense, don't you? Here you have a guy not far below 50. You have him for league minimum. He's a great person for the younger guys on the team to emulate, and don't undersell that for a reason he's on the ice.

Just an eyeball test, but during the Lightning game, I saw several times that Cullen's line had the Lightning's top line stuck in their defensive zone. I really think we have a pretty darned good 4th line, and that starts with Cullen.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Malkintent on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:23 pm

Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
Malkintent wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?


That's precisely why it makes sense. If you think this team is gonna go anywhere worthwhile with this defensive corps then your head is up your ***.

So your solution is to make the d corps worse? Then they'll get somewhere!
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Re: Moving forward

Postby LimerickPensFan on Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:31 pm

Malkintent wrote:
Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
Malkintent wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?


That's precisely why it makes sense. If you think this team is gonna go anywhere worthwhile with this defensive corps then your head is up your ***.

So your solution is to make the d corps worse? Then they'll get somewhere!

I'm amazed anyone is seriously thinking of trading Letang. Even Kessel is a joke, but at least an understandable one with him having an off year and having an off playoffs last year.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Owchar76 on Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:52 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:
Pitts wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:But in what way is Cullen productive or at all helping this team?

Really? Do you watch the games? You know he went 11-0 in faceoffs against Calgary and is a stalwart on the PK? It isn't all about goals and assists.


11-0 is awesome. It still only vaulted him to 48% on the season. Not good at all. Good game on the dot, but bad season on the dot.

Cullen is dead last on the Pens in terms of controlling shots at even strength. 40.84%. Embarrassingly bad.
Cullen is at the bottom in Scoring Chances For % at 45.30. He's minimally ahead of Bjugstad and McCann.

In terms of suppressing shots on the PK, he's been pretty good. One of the Pens better players on the PK. Basically he's playing like a PK specialist that offers nothing 5 on 5. One of of the biggest issues right now is depth and not having the bottom two lines get hemmed in their zone shift after shift. Cullen at a miserable 40% at 5 on 5 is killing this team. Yes he does start in the defensive zone more often than not, but he also loses more faceoffs than he wins, which puts him behind the 8 ball every shift it seems.

There aren't a ton of options out there, but it doesn't seem like there would be any sort of drop off if they actually did experiment with scratching Cullen.

Amazing that a fourth line isn't toward the top of the league in advanced stats. I'll bet that doesn't hold true anywhere else.

Seriously. It's the fourth line. You expect them to have numbers like the first line. You understand that a team can't be made up of 12 Sid Crosbys playing offense and 6 Kris Letangs playing defense, don't you? Here you have a guy not far below 50. You have him for league minimum. He's a great person for the younger guys on the team to emulate, and don't undersell that for a reason he's on the ice.

Just an eyeball test, but during the Lightning game, I saw several times that Cullen's line had the Lightning's top line stuck in their defensive zone. I really think we have a pretty darned good 4th line, and that starts with Cullen.



I'm not asking for the fourth line to be toward the top of the league in advanced stats, but I'll put it into perspective for you.

Out of all forwards with a minimum of 425 minutes of 5 on 5 icetime this year........

Matt Cullen ranks dead last. 337th place with a CF% of 41%. Sure analytics don't tell the whole story, but when you rank dead last among regular players in the league, one has to think that maybe there's something to it. Not easy to ignore that.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Owchar76 on Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:06 am

LimerickPensFan wrote:
Malkintent wrote:
Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
Malkintent wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I think we are at the point where we need to move Kessel and Letang for whatever we can get and go from there.

We'll go from there which is nowhere. People still want to trade one of only two Dmen who are worth a damn?


That's precisely why it makes sense. If you think this team is gonna go anywhere worthwhile with this defensive corps then your head is up your ***.

So your solution is to make the d corps worse? Then they'll get somewhere!

I'm amazed anyone is seriously thinking of trading Letang. Even Kessel is a joke, but at least an understandable one with him having an off year and having an off playoffs last year.


Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby murphydump55 on Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:40 am

Owchar76 wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:
Pitts wrote:
Mythodikal wrote:But in what way is Cullen productive or at all helping this team?

Really? Do you watch the games? You know he went 11-0 in faceoffs against Calgary and is a stalwart on the PK? It isn't all about goals and assists.


11-0 is awesome. It still only vaulted him to 48% on the season. Not good at all. Good game on the dot, but bad season on the dot.

Cullen is dead last on the Pens in terms of controlling shots at even strength. 40.84%. Embarrassingly bad.
Cullen is at the bottom in Scoring Chances For % at 45.30. He's minimally ahead of Bjugstad and McCann.

In terms of suppressing shots on the PK, he's been pretty good. One of the Pens better players on the PK. Basically he's playing like a PK specialist that offers nothing 5 on 5. One of of the biggest issues right now is depth and not having the bottom two lines get hemmed in their zone shift after shift. Cullen at a miserable 40% at 5 on 5 is killing this team. Yes he does start in the defensive zone more often than not, but he also loses more faceoffs than he wins, which puts him behind the 8 ball every shift it seems.

There aren't a ton of options out there, but it doesn't seem like there would be any sort of drop off if they actually did experiment with scratching Cullen.

Amazing that a fourth line isn't toward the top of the league in advanced stats. I'll bet that doesn't hold true anywhere else.

Seriously. It's the fourth line. You expect them to have numbers like the first line. You understand that a team can't be made up of 12 Sid Crosbys playing offense and 6 Kris Letangs playing defense, don't you? Here you have a guy not far below 50. You have him for league minimum. He's a great person for the younger guys on the team to emulate, and don't undersell that for a reason he's on the ice.

Just an eyeball test, but during the Lightning game, I saw several times that Cullen's line had the Lightning's top line stuck in their defensive zone. I really think we have a pretty darned good 4th line, and that starts with Cullen.



I'm not asking for the fourth line to be toward the top of the league in advanced stats, but I'll put it into perspective for you.

Out of all forwards with a minimum of 425 minutes of 5 on 5 icetime this year........

Matt Cullen ranks dead last. 337th place with a CF% of 41%. Sure analytics don't tell the whole story, but when you rank dead last among regular players in the league, one has to think that maybe there's something to it. Not easy to ignore that.


Eerily similar to Johnson in that people claim he’s so valuable because he plays on the PK. Neither guy can stay afloat 5 on 5 either. I’d much rather fill out my lineup with guys that can play 5 on 5 and figure out the pk after. It’s not a crazy hard skill.

Sid, McCann, Blueger, Rust, Simon, Zar. I’d trust all of those guys to PK and I’m sure they’d do fine.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:30 am

Owchar76 wrote:Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.


I dont agree at all. People said the same thing when Letang was out for the season and the Pens went on to win the cup.

Letang is a generational offensive talent but is a liability defensively. He is the modern day Paul Coffey.

Even look at the PP since Schultz has returned, the 2nd PP has performed better than the first. If you have Schultz imo Letang is expendable and can be replaced with two veteran stay at home defenseman.

Give me a Cole and Hainsey clone for Letang every day and put them with Schultz and Dumoulin and you win cups.

It comes down to me knowing that with 87 and 71 if you give up less goals those two are going to get theirs and you're going to win.
Last edited by thehockeyguru on Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby johnnews on Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:46 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.


I dont agree at all. People said the same thing when Letang was out for the season and the Pens went on to win the cup.

Letang is a generational offensive talent but is a liability defensively. He is the modern day Paul Coffey.

Even look at the PP since Schultz has returned, the 2nd PP has performed better than the first. If you have Schultz imo Letang is expendable and can be replaced with two veteran stay at home defenseman.

Give a Cole and Hainsey clone for Letang every day and put them with Schultz and Dumoulin and you win cups.


Liability defensively? He's a +11 this season, leads the league in goals by D, makes a ton a plays with a deft stick, and is a Norris candidate. He's also on the ice at every key moment of every game. Try throwing Hainsey or Cole out there for that volume of key situations. They would get crushed.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:09 am

johnnews wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.


I dont agree at all. People said the same thing when Letang was out for the season and the Pens went on to win the cup.

Letang is a generational offensive talent but is a liability defensively. He is the modern day Paul Coffey.

Even look at the PP since Schultz has returned, the 2nd PP has performed better than the first. If you have Schultz imo Letang is expendable and can be replaced with two veteran stay at home defenseman.

Give a Cole and Hainsey clone for Letang every day and put them with Schultz and Dumoulin and you win cups.


Liability defensively? He's a +11 this season, leads the league in goals by D, makes a ton a plays with a deft stick, and is a Norris candidate. He's also on the ice at every key moment of every game. Try throwing Hainsey or Cole out there for that volume of key situations. They would get crushed.


+/- is a trash stat, I use my eyes. Last night that first goal could have been prevented if Letang was in position covering his guy.

There were two goals against the Rangers that happened because Letang watched guys score on rebounds in or around the paint.

Like I said the Pens are going to get theirs with 87 and 71 playing at a high level. Come playoff time you aren't going to win if you're giving up 5 goals a game like they did over the weekend or 3 goals against a crap Devils team.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby murphydump55 on Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:15 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.


I dont agree at all. People said the same thing when Letang was out for the season and the Pens went on to win the cup.

Letang is a generational offensive talent but is a liability defensively. He is the modern day Paul Coffey.

Even look at the PP since Schultz has returned, the 2nd PP has performed better than the first. If you have Schultz imo Letang is expendable and can be replaced with two veteran stay at home defenseman.

Give me a Cole and Hainsey clone for Letang every day and put them with Schultz and Dumoulin and you win cups.

It comes down to me knowing that with 87 and 71 if you give up less goals those two are going to get theirs and you're going to win.


Hainsey is awful and Leaf Fans are super frustrated with him.

I can’t even...Cole and Hainsey instead of Letang. I’ll stop here and just agree to disagree.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby johnnews on Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:16 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
johnnews wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.


I dont agree at all. People said the same thing when Letang was out for the season and the Pens went on to win the cup.

Letang is a generational offensive talent but is a liability defensively. He is the modern day Paul Coffey.

Even look at the PP since Schultz has returned, the 2nd PP has performed better than the first. If you have Schultz imo Letang is expendable and can be replaced with two veteran stay at home defenseman.

Give a Cole and Hainsey clone for Letang every day and put them with Schultz and Dumoulin and you win cups.


Liability defensively? He's a +11 this season, leads the league in goals by D, makes a ton a plays with a deft stick, and is a Norris candidate. He's also on the ice at every key moment of every game. Try throwing Hainsey or Cole out there for that volume of key situations. They would get crushed.


+/- is a trash stat, I use my eyes. Last night that first goal could have been prevented if Letang was in position covering his guy.

There were two goals against the Rangers that happened because Letang watched guys score on rebounds in or around the paint.

Like I said the Pens are going to get theirs with 87 and 71 playing at a high level. Come playoff time you aren't going to win if you're giving up 5 goals a game like they did over the weekend or 3 goals against a crap Devils team.


I use my eyes, as well. I saw the first goal last night and agree. However, my eyes have also seen other defenseman. I'll take Letang.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby longtimefan on Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:26 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.


I dont agree at all. People said the same thing when Letang was out for the season and the Pens went on to win the cup.

Letang is a generational offensive talent but is a liability defensively. He is the modern day Paul Coffey.

Even look at the PP since Schultz has returned, the 2nd PP has performed better than the first. If you have Schultz imo Letang is expendable and can be replaced with two veteran stay at home defenseman.

Give me a Cole and Hainsey clone for Letang every day and put them with Schultz and Dumoulin and you win cups.

It comes down to me knowing that with 87 and 71 if you give up less goals those two are going to get theirs and you're going to win.


It probably isn't the best choice for your argument to compare him to Coffey, a 5 time Cup winner.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:29 am

murphydump55 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.


I dont agree at all. People said the same thing when Letang was out for the season and the Pens went on to win the cup.

Letang is a generational offensive talent but is a liability defensively. He is the modern day Paul Coffey.

Even look at the PP since Schultz has returned, the 2nd PP has performed better than the first. If you have Schultz imo Letang is expendable and can be replaced with two veteran stay at home defenseman.

Give me a Cole and Hainsey clone for Letang every day and put them with Schultz and Dumoulin and you win cups.

It comes down to me knowing that with 87 and 71 if you give up less goals those two are going to get theirs and you're going to win.


Hainsey is awful and Leaf Fans are super frustrated with him.

I can’t even...Cole and Hainsey instead of Letang. I’ll stop here and just agree to disagree.


I'm not saying to sign a 35 year old Hainsey. I'm saying the 7.25M you are paying Letang can get you two stay at home defenseman.

When the defense and goaltending prevent a deep run again this postseason what are the Pens going to do?
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Re: Moving forward

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:32 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.


I dont agree at all. People said the same thing when Letang was out for the season and the Pens went on to win the cup.

Letang is a generational offensive talent but is a liability defensively. He is the modern day Paul Coffey.

Even look at the PP since Schultz has returned, the 2nd PP has performed better than the first. If you have Schultz imo Letang is expendable and can be replaced with two veteran stay at home defenseman.

Give me a Cole and Hainsey clone for Letang every day and put them with Schultz and Dumoulin and you win cups.

It comes down to me knowing that with 87 and 71 if you give up less goals those two are going to get theirs and you're going to win.

Not sure if I'm in the minority here or not, but I would hardly blame Letang for that first goal. I see several things watching that replay:

1) Cullen kicked out of the faceoff....again. It's been happening to him a lot lately. Simon loses the draw cleanly.
2) Notice where Letang is lined up on the faceoff....the right boards. He has the furthest to go of any player on the ice to get to Bratt.
3) This is a set play by the Devils, worked to perfection by likely studying some Penguin tendencies.
4) Bratt really makes this play. Off the faceoff, he tangles up with Letang, then rolls off the pick/tie up, and makes a bee-line for the far side of the net. What I would have liked to have seen there is Dumoulin slide over and pick him up. At the point the pass is made to Bratt, there are THREE devils pretty wide open. The top point, a guy on the far LW boards, and Bratt down low by the net. The Penguins are bunched up. They play a lot of overload defense, where they try to outnumber the opponent and get the puck. When it fails, you typically have breakdowns like this.

Image
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Re: Moving forward

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:46 am

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.


I dont agree at all. People said the same thing when Letang was out for the season and the Pens went on to win the cup.

Letang is a generational offensive talent but is a liability defensively. He is the modern day Paul Coffey.

Even look at the PP since Schultz has returned, the 2nd PP has performed better than the first. If you have Schultz imo Letang is expendable and can be replaced with two veteran stay at home defenseman.

Give me a Cole and Hainsey clone for Letang every day and put them with Schultz and Dumoulin and you win cups.

It comes down to me knowing that with 87 and 71 if you give up less goals those two are going to get theirs and you're going to win.

Not sure if I'm in the minority here or not, but I would hardly blame Letang for that first goal. I see several things watching that replay:

1) Cullen kicked out of the faceoff....again. It's been happening to him a lot lately. Simon loses the draw cleanly.
2) Notice where Letang is lined up on the faceoff....the right boards. He has the furthest to go of any player on the ice to get to Bratt.
3) This is a set play by the Devils, worked to perfection by likely studying some Penguin tendencies.
4) Bratt really makes this play. Off the faceoff, he tangles up with Letang, then rolls off the pick/tie up, and makes a bee-line for the far side of the net. What I would have liked to have seen there is Dumoulin slide over and pick him up. At the point the pass is made to Bratt, there are THREE devils pretty wide open. The top point, a guy on the far LW boards, and Bratt down low by the net. The Penguins are bunched up. They play a lot of overload defense, where they try to outnumber the opponent and get the puck. When it fails, you typically have breakdowns like this.

Image


That's a great pic, I'm fine with where Dumoulin is because hes on a man, Letang like he does too much is puck watching and unaware of the unmarked man to his left.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby murphydump55 on Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:56 am

The fact that people are saying they'd rather have Hainsey and Cole types over Letang.

The whole reason this team is struggling this year is because of a lack of puck movers. If Letang and Dumoulin aren't on the ice, this team is pinned in their zone. Use your eyes and look at the numbers, there are no ways around it. It's been that way since the beginning of the season and it's been talked about on here. No Letang and Dumoulin? No offense. Geno got saddled all season long with a bad defensive pairing and his line has struggled. This isn't a secret.

The hope is that a guy like Schultz coming back will help drive possession and offense more for the 2nd line and possibly bottom 2 lines. Basically lightening the load for Letang and Dumoulin.

Hainsey and Cole are both guys that do not move the needle in terms of possession or driving offense. So now you don't have Letang who actually gives this team some sort of pulse from the back end and you're replacing him with two guys that aren't puck distributors or drivers of any sort of offense.

Yes this team won a Cup without Letang. You know what else they did? They PDO'd their way to that Cup. They rode a .937 save % from Matt Murray! They had an above average shooting %. If you think this is the norm and will happen again without Letang, then I dont know what to say.

In 2002-03 Brodeur was a machine and he had a .934 save %.
2011-12 Quick was also unbeatable with a .946
Giguere was .945 in 02-03
Thomas was .940 in 2010-11

These are some of, if not the best goaltending performances in recent NHL history. Murray is right in there at .937. This isn't going to happen on a regular basis as evident by the other numbers posted. Throw in a high shooting % and people think, boom, we don't need Letang. Again, this high shooting % and super high save % are unlikely to happen again.

We've seen what happens to this team when the Letang pairing isn't on the ice. He makes EVERY partner he plays with better. If he's not on the ice, this team is struggling to produce shots and score goals. Jack Johnson is a prime example of how bad this team is when he's on the ice. The goal differential goes from the best in the league to the worst.

You don't trade Letang for two guys like that. You just don't.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:35 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Exactly. Trading Letang would make this team astronomically worse. You aren't getting a better player back, and if you trade the best player in a deal, chances are you lose that deal 9 times out of 10.


I dont agree at all. People said the same thing when Letang was out for the season and the Pens went on to win the cup.

Letang is a generational offensive talent but is a liability defensively. He is the modern day Paul Coffey.

Even look at the PP since Schultz has returned, the 2nd PP has performed better than the first. If you have Schultz imo Letang is expendable and can be replaced with two veteran stay at home defenseman.

Give me a Cole and Hainsey clone for Letang every day and put them with Schultz and Dumoulin and you win cups.

It comes down to me knowing that with 87 and 71 if you give up less goals those two are going to get theirs and you're going to win.

Not sure if I'm in the minority here or not, but I would hardly blame Letang for that first goal. I see several things watching that replay:

1) Cullen kicked out of the faceoff....again. It's been happening to him a lot lately. Simon loses the draw cleanly.
2) Notice where Letang is lined up on the faceoff....the right boards. He has the furthest to go of any player on the ice to get to Bratt.
3) This is a set play by the Devils, worked to perfection by likely studying some Penguin tendencies.
4) Bratt really makes this play. Off the faceoff, he tangles up with Letang, then rolls off the pick/tie up, and makes a bee-line for the far side of the net. What I would have liked to have seen there is Dumoulin slide over and pick him up. At the point the pass is made to Bratt, there are THREE devils pretty wide open. The top point, a guy on the far LW boards, and Bratt down low by the net. The Penguins are bunched up. They play a lot of overload defense, where they try to outnumber the opponent and get the puck. When it fails, you typically have breakdowns like this.

Image


That's a great pic, I'm fine with where Dumoulin is because hes on a man, Letang like he does too much is puck watching and unaware of the unmarked man to his left.

I've fine with it. Looks worse in a still pic than watching the video. He has to chase Bratt from one side of the ice to the other. As he is doing so so, he takes a quick half a second peek to actually find out where the puck is. Not like he is standing in that spot for 5 seconds just watching.
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Re: Moving forward

Postby Cow_Master66 on Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:07 am

How can anyone criticize the "win-now" approach? YINZ do realize that the ENTIRE "core" group (+ some others) has taken less money to stay here and WIN TOGETHER right? How do YINZ think those players would feel if the team didn't do everything in it's power to win now?
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